Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

[Ironbear24]

Self defense based Bjj includes throws, chokes, and locks where you're not following your assailant to the ground. Additionally, those throws utilize the body's natural handles instead of reliance on lapels and sleeves. Judo's sport base will give you ridiculous stamina, balance, and serious gripping power. It'll also teach you how to fall, which can be critical in a nasty situation.

There are few things worse to go up against than a person who is highly trained in both Judo and Bjj.



And what if he is on top of you and you have zero ground fighting experience?

Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.

 

[Hanzou]

Then you die.

Then I think we both can agree that getting a few lump and bruises is more preferable to death.

My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.

You don't need to be lightning fast, just fast enough to get out of a nasty situation. Further, you don't need chokes and locks to do the job, oftentimes a sweep will do, and will get you into a more favorable position.

 

[Ironbear24]

So you sweep the guy. Then what? He can still get back up.

 

[Hanzou]

So you sweep the guy. Then what? He can still get back up.

Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.

 

[Ironbear24]

Sweep him into mount and then do what the situation requires. Punish them or escape, it's your choice.

Ok so going back to the OP. Yes Judo us good for self defense. So is BJJ. Me and hanzo just argue because we have different philosophies when it comes to self defense but both work given that you are diligent enough to practice often.

 

[Buka]

"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain

Same holds true for fighting Judokas and BJJers when all that's been done to prepare is theorize incorrectly.

 

[elder999]

Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.

This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.

As I've said before, there's a strike in almost every throw. The throw also, typically, has a deflection or block for a strike-if self-defense is taught.

The "takedown" works better against someone attacking, rather than as an attack itself, though it can be used that way, especially as a follow-up to a strike.

 

[lklawson]

Hello all.

I am new, so please be easy on me.

I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.

I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).

This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

Worked pretty good for Gene LeBell

Let me know what you think!!

I think you should do Judo.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[JR 137]

No strikes in Judo? I guess you've never seen Austin Powers.

 

[drop bear]

Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.

Not really. Grappling is more cumulative than striking due to positional dominance. So I hit you,you can hit me. This happens until the better hitter makes the other guy falls over.

I clinch. You can't really hit me. But I can more easily take you down. I take you down you have even less chance to hit me. And so on.

So it is less of a race to get an arm lock and more of a path towards control.

By the way if you fight in a gi it is even harder to escape grappling because the clothing creates many more control points. S if you do striking vs grappling you would be better off cutting your sleeves off or something.

 

[Skullpunch]

Judo is awesome, I'll address your concerns one by one.

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

-

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?

BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.

(And these defenses are not great. --->

)

Let me know what you think!!

1. Clothes can be used for judo throws too. They can be grabbed and used as levers - not over and over again for years like a judo gi but you only need one. Additionally, various judo throws can work very well without the gi - O Goshi, Harai Goshi, Osoto Gari, Sukui Nage, morote gari, ushiro goshi, and a few others have quite a high success rate from various body lock positions and can be devastating on a hard surface. Adaptibility is key, and if you have any no gi grappling schools close by you can become a boss at b1tch tossing people both with and without the gi. This can double up from the clinch if your opponent/attacker is wearing a thin t-shirt as you can combine both bodylock and clothing grips from over/under and get some tremendous leverage into a takedown.

2. I think you're overestimating the amount of power your average attacker can generate from this range, add to that the fact that from here it will most likely be the judo guy controlling the distance - and disrupting your opponent's balance (good luck planting your feet and pivoting into a power shot while a strong clincher is manipulating your body weight) and also if you worry too much about throwing punches and too little about defending the takedown you're gonna get slammed. Unless you're trying to collar grip Mike Tyson, chances of you getting hurt by punches from this position are low as long as you don't completely suck. Also - see # 1, the body lock positions, those completely negate the punching fear.

Also consider the fact that even professional boxers end up stuck in clinches even when they have no intention of going there - it just happens. On the street, there's a very good chance that an aggressive attacker will either initiate a clinch himself or accidentally run into one while trying to windmill on you, it happens and a strong judoka has a huge advantage from here.

3. This is also a strength in many ways. The fact that you're not dribbling each other's brains in judo means you can practice full throttle almost everyday without losing an eye or all of your brain cells - this type of training is absent with many techniques in a style like, say, Krav Maga, and while those techniques can be effective, they would be far, FAR more effective if you could practice them full force against an opponent who is resisting full force. This type of training is essential for a martial artist and judo gives you that.

Also, your concerns regarding bjj are unfounded. If groin strikes were all it took to beat bjj it would have gotten ran the fukk over by everything back in the style vs. style days of NHB, but we all know that didn't happen. Bjj is legit, both for sport and self-defense. Your choice if you do it or not but it will only make you a better martial artist if you do.

 

[Skullpunch]

Then you die. My point is during the time you will grappling with someone somebody else can hit you or grab you. Unless you happen to be lighting fast and do your breaks, joint locks very quickly.

A bjj school who's belts are worth anything will be teaching you enough nage-waza to where you can easily ragdoll an attacker standing without ever going to the ground if need be. It all depends on the school, some of them are 100% pure sport where all of your grappling starts on your knees and you seldom, if ever do anything else. I agree with you when it comes to those, but there are others that actually teach the right way, with judo and wrestling takedowns included in the cirriculum. In fact, Robson Moura's place has a day out of the week where his students literally do zero ground grappling and nothing but throws and takedowns. This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.

 

[JR 137]

This approach has self defense in mind, as the situation you describe is one where you're probably better off slamming your attacker as you remain standing ready for his accomplice to jump in.

If there's on place I want to be in a fight, it's on my feet with my opponent on the ground. Sidewalks and streets will always hit so much harder than I ever will if I throw my opponent right.

I don't think it matters if it's wrestling, judo or BJJ throwing. It's all about balance, weight shifting, how to get into throwing position, and how to set it up. The principles are the same across the board, from what I've seen. If you have no experience in a throwing art, the throws look different; if you have experience in one of them, they pretty much look like variations of each other and are easily understood as to how they actually work and the important points that'll make them work.

 

[EvanWinther]

You can definitely get your attacker into a position where he can't hit you. Also Judo is so fun so I'd recommend it

 

[Ironbear24]

Not really. Grappling is more cumulative than striking due to positional dominance. So I hit you,you can hit me. This happens until the better hitter makes the other guy falls over.

I clinch. You can't really hit me. But I can more easily take you down. I take you down you have even less chance to hit me. And so on.

So it is less of a race to get an arm lock and more of a path towards control.

By the way if you fight in a gi it is even harder to escape grappling because the clothing creates many more control points. S if you do striking vs grappling you would be better off cutting your sleeves off or something.

I don't understand what you mean by grappling is more cumulative. Many styles can strike while in a clinch, my sifu has for example been teaching us to strike while practically in the opponent's face, you don't need a ton of room to throw a good strike. I was skeptical about this then he showed me, he had me on the floor clutching my sides and I have the bruises to prove it.

It also doesn't take much to take down an attacker with strikes alone. It's also less risky to yourself because you won't be exposing yourself as much as if you were to tangle with the someone.

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand what you mean by grappling is more cumulative. Many styles can strike while in a clinch, my sifu has for example been teaching us to strike while practically in the opponent's face, you don't need a ton of room to throw a good strike. I was skeptical about this then he showed me, he had me on the floor clutching my sides and I have the bruises to prove it.

It also doesn't take much to take down an attacker with strikes alone. It's also less risky to yourself because you won't be exposing yourself as much as if you were to tangle with the someone.

Good striking in the clinch means good clinching same as good striking on the ground.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Welcome to Martial Talk, WarriorMonk.

It's hard to suggest things to round out another's game without first knowing the game or it's level.
What do you train, bro?

Thai boxing and wrestling. Sorry.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Hi there.



Hmm… this will be gentle by my reckoning… so take it as it is…



Okay. The obvious question (as brought up by Buka) is what you're currently training for "self defence", and why you think it's not sufficient? That can lead us into all kinds of interesting areas regarding what self defence actually is, what the requirements really are (physically and combatively, much less is needed than most think), but we'll start with what your actual training background (past and current) is.



Er… okay… and exactly how did you come to that conclusion? I mean, I'm assuming you're then ruling out the sutemi waza, ne waza and so forth, yeah? Including the katame no kata that was one of the very first formalised kata sets that Kano came up with to teach his art? And how does Judo's throwing methods then differ from any other throwing art's methods? Are other arts only able to throw someone so they're kneeling? Or still standing themselves?



Yeah… getting back to what "self defence" actually is… head kicks are largely frowned upon, so… maybe get out of that headspace?



Good question, considering the impression you have so far…



Judo-ka wear tough gi so they don't rip their work shirts in practice. In an actual application, of course, you'd likely be unconcerned with the state of the other guys clothing. For the record, though, the clothing has no real bearing on "leverage" or "torque" in throwing arts… my arts range from being able to throw someone in armour through to a light t-shirt/no shirt at all…



Being that close to anyone (in a combative situation/fight) can see you punched in the face… but a proper judo kumi-te grip is actually pretty good defence against being hit. You're controlling both sides of the opponent (both arms), and have quite a good amount of sensitivity built in to "feel" what your opponent is doing and where they're moving.



Frankly, good luck elbowing me from a proper grip. On the other hand, elbowing the guy I'm about to throw… that's relatively easy (in other words, you seem rather unaware of the actual position of the arms here, on both sides… of course, judo-ka train to work with their personally preferred grips, so there's no single grip you can define as the only one used in Judo…).



Okay….



So… one of the reasons you're "skeptical" about Judo is that "nowadays (it's) more of a sport than self-defence", but you then look to kickboxing (which is purely a sporting competitive format), muay Thai (a competitive sporting system) and Sanshou/Sanda (a competitive form of Chinese kickboxing) as examples for something better… and then look to them for takedown and throwing methods, even though they are all primarily striking systems with some rudimentary takedowns at best (none in most forms of kickboxing at all)?



And again, you know all of this based on… what? What experience with BJJ do you have to say it's "silly" for self defence? How are you able to assess the vulnerability of two of the most stable and safest positions (in the context of ground work… which also features pretty well in Judo, by the way… I mean… you are aware of where BJJ comes from, yeah?) in ground fighting? Or the viability of what are honestly pretty decent actions in the clip you posted?



I'll be honest. What I think is that you have no experience with Judo… no experience with BJJ… no experience with much of the realities of fighting, self defence, and more… but, based on what you think you know (which isn't much), you've made up your own mind already. So, let's take it back a step or three.

You mention that you are looking to "round out your game for self defence"… okay. What exactly are you looking for? Why were you looking at Judo in the first place? Once we look at that, then we might be able to get somewhere… but right now, you're already convinced of what you think you know, and have reasoned your way to whatever conclusion you had come up with. And that means you'll have two options… either continue to believe what you think you know, and justify your perceptions the way you have… in which case nothing we say can or will change that… or you recognise that you're coming from a position where you're not quite really in a position to make such an assessment, and we can look at what might suit you best.

Thank you for your reply!

Yes - I am naturally skeptical. Lol. I did not want to offend practitioners of BJJ by the way. I did BJJ for a year and would always laugh when someone would try to pull guard on me with their genitals in the air.

One punch and it would be over.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

What do you currently train in, that you feel needs rounding out?

(I'm going to, for now, avoid the whole derail of what you mean by "self-defense", since that opens up a great big can of worms that we've discussed at length on this forum in multiple threads.)



Judo has plenty of applicability for fighting in a non-sport context. It is most commonly taught in a sport setting, so you need to make some adjustments if you want to use it in a context where people might be punching you. Those adjustments are relatively simple though, especially if you have some striking experience to work with.



Muay Thai has a better takedown game than most people realize. However it's hard to find places outside of Thailand where that aspect of the art is taught and trained to any great depth. Not saying they don't exist, but if you randomly select a Muay Thai gym in whatever city you happen to live in, the statistical odds are that they won't emphasize that part of the curriculum.

As far as Sanda/Sanshou goes, unless you live in certain areas you may have a hard time finding a school which teaches it at all, let alone one that is good with the takedowns.


Hah! No. Just, no. If you live anywhere near where I'm at, you are welcome to come by the gym and try to groin shot me from under my mount or in my guard. If you can accomplish anything more than mildly annoying me with the attempt, I will give you $50.

If you're not in the vicinity of Lexington, talk to an experienced BJJ practitioner in your area and ask them to show you what happened if you try to hit their groin from those positions. Fair warning - get their agreement before trying the experiment. If you try to pull that as a surprise move while rolling you may end up seriously hurt.

Thanks man!

Can you explain - specifically - how you would protect your groin from the guard or mount? I'm very curious.

 

[WarriorMonk7]

Reread my post. I did. It's anatomically impossible to punch someone in the testicles from those positions.

Trust that if someone is running on a massive shot of adrenaline and beating down on you inside your guard, he will get to your testicles if he wants to hurt you.