John Pellegrini

[Kong Soo Do]

What isn't fuzzy is that GM Pelligrini was NOT promoted to 6th Dan by GM Myung, because the person you cited has since deferred to others with more personal knowledge.

Apparenlty he made it to at least 5th under GM Myung. Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The only thing that I consider worth discussing is when it was issued in relation to when his gudan was issued.

It would appear that who issued what is fairly well established from those close to the source(s).

I'm far less interested at this point in what happened between 1979 and 1992 than I am in how he comports himself as the head of his own system and how well his organization takes care of its members. From what I understand, his members are very pleased with him as an organizational head.

Agreed.

Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier. You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him. Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors. And those who say such things know it. I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing. Whether or not it is appropriate or what not is something that I will let others here hash out.

This is what I've been saying. Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make. If John P. earned his ranks, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it. If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider. As mentioned multiple times, it is a moot point at this juncture.

Look, organizations promote people for all kinds of reasons. It could be that he ran his concept by Seo and Seo thought it was an incredibly good idea and wanted to help him get it going. In doing so, his organization would be friendly with Pellegrini's and mutual respect between them is something that Seo may have felt would be beneficial to both organizations. Perhaps he simply wanted to show support for the fledgling organization for the purpose of promoting the martial arts.

That would be a very honorable thing.

Based on my conversation with him on first hand accounts of seminars from people that I know and have trained with, I would look forward to training with him if I had the opportunity. He was very decent to me in our conversation and people that I know who have attended his seminars said that working with him was a very positive experience and they learned a lot.

It all sounds good to me.

Sounds good to me as well. Perhaps it is time to put the thread to bed on J.P.?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is what I've been saying. Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make. If John P. earned his ranks, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it.

Once again, skills are earned. Rank is issued and responsibility is assigned or taken on.

Not all officers enlist and go through the ranks of private, corporal, or sargeant. Some go to officers school and graduate as officers. Corporate officers and CEOs do not get to their position very frequently by starting out in the mail room or even for being exceptionally good at the company's primary business. The CEO of Red Lobster, for example, probably wasn't a lobsterman and certainly wasn't required to work all of the restaurant positions in order to climb the corporate ladder. He or she was probably brought in from somewhere on the basis of business accumen and probably got started by going to business school.

I remember when Radio Shack brought in Len Roberts as the new president back in the late eighties/early ninties. He came from Shoneys and had no background in electronics at all. As I recall, he did a good job. I left when he was still president (perhaps he still is) so I have no idea what Radio Shack thinks of him now.

The reason that officers in the military are not always former grunts and that the corporate head of Harley Davidson probably didn't start off as a motorcycle mechanic is because the skills needed to be an officer or a corporate head are unrelated to the skills needed for being in the trenches or on the front line.

I strongly suspect that there was never any point in his life that Cus D'Amato could have ever beaten Mike Tyson in his competitive years. But he was able to coach Mike Tyson and train him to become a champion. And most of the best football coaches are not former superstar athletes. But they can coach a team of superstar athletes and coordinate their efforts so that the team succeeds on the field.

If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider. As mentioned multiple times, it is a moot point at this juncture.

What, that he bought his rank? Actually, there are several options to consider. Again, the ability to put together a system and an organization are a different skill set than those of being a hotshot on the mat. Asking a tournament champion to systematize the technical elements of a martial art and to put together an organization to spread that art will, in most cases, yield less than satisfactory results.

GMP's skills as an organizational head and as the founder of his system are a separate skill set from those of being an exceptional MA-ist. Which is why I prefer to judge the man based on the quality of his system and of his organization.

As I said, his rank isn't going anywhere. Chances are, his organization will outlive him. So how good is the organization and how good is the system?

If you don't like that he called it hapkido, get over it. He's not changing the name. I'm sure that Ferrari drivers had the same complaint about the Pontiac GTO. Perhaps if you wait long enough, the CHKD organization will go the way of Pontiac. But be perpared for a long wait; Pontiac was around for over eighty years.

To be clear, lest anyone think that I am giving approval to the kind of rank gymnastics that it seems that GMP and his senior engaged in, I am not. I feel that such rapid promotions always cause friction and undermine the efforts of those who receive such promotions. The only people who care about how quickly you were promoted and to what rank are other MA-ists. Your students will not care, particularly if your system is decent. Nobody cared what rank Bruce Lee was. Nobody cared what rank Funakoshi was either (it was fifth dan, in case you were wondering). Nobody cared what rank Choi Yong Sul was for that matter. And I suspect that GMP is smart enough that he could have accomplished everything that he has with CHKD even without a grandmaster rank.

Rank inflation has been an issue in the martial arts for decades. There is no good reason to undermine what you do by engaging in it. So don't do it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

If you don't like that he called it hapkido, get over it. He's not changing the name.

I hope that was a general comment and not directed at me, because I've never stated I have an issue with GM P.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Apparenlty he made it to at least 5th under GM Myung.

Did he?

Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.

If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor. I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. If he did not promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did could be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank. I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it. I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet.

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I hope that was a general comment and not directed at me, because I've never stated I have an issue with GM P.

General comment. Much of what is in that post is meant in general. I am aware that you have no issue with GMP. Puts on both on the same page here, as I do not either.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I'm not going to quote the whole blurb...

TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.

"...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to fifth dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"

There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.

TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.

April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.

Frankly, having seen what he does, I wished he called it something else...

Of course the issuers of the higher rank should be scrutinized...why those ranks were ever conferred is anyone's guess. If we look at the last, highest ranks, I am under the assumption that the "organization" (World Ki-do, or Hanminjok) conferred them as there is no one in the organization ranked highly enough in Hapkido to issues such rank.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Did he?

According to those with more time in Hapkido that both of us, yes. Should it be an issue (minor or major), not as far as I'm concerned.

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.

Incorrect, which is why I made the statement I made and stand by it.

With respect.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

General comment. Much of what is in that post is meant in general. I am aware that you have no issue with GMP. Puts on both on the same page here, as I do not either.

Sounds good, just wanted to clarify, thank you.

 

[iron_ox]

Did he?


If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor. I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. If he did not promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did could be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank. I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it. I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet.

DO you not understand the implication of inflated rank and the potential to be teaching inferior material? And libel? Come on Daniel, are you kidding?

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.

And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin - someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question! The organizations that issued the rank SHOULD be held accountable - in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.

 

[iron_ox]

Well, I was talking about high kicks. I believe GMPs Combat Hapkido has kicks in it, just not the ones that a more traditional brand of Hapkido would include, ie: the jumping, spinning kicks.

"Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks. Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.

 

[MJS]

"Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks. Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.

Ahh...ok. Thank you for clarifying that. So, I take it that the Hapkido that you teach, is as you described above?

 

[MJS]

Actually, after taking a look at your site (which is very nice BTW ) I found the answer to my question. Its good to see that there're still some traditional schools out there, that adhere to the 'old school' way of things, instead of watering things down.

 

[oftheherd1]

"Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks. Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.

I have mentioned before that my limited TKD experience is from the mid-60s under Jhoon Goo Rhee, and only about 12 months. But we didn't have such high kicks as are now common. At least not at the level we were. We had only one black belt, and several brown belts, with the rest of us below.

We were astounded one evening when Mr. Rhee was sparring against a rather too exhuberent but very athletic white belt. He delivered a side hook kick to the white belt's solar plexus. We had never seen that before and didn't know what had happened.

Things like a high heel down kick (axe kick?), inside/outside face kick, or spin kicks were not being taught. I suspect Mr. Rhee and others of higher rank knew them, but we weren't being taught them. I don't recall that we were taught a 'face kick' using the upper instep of the kicking foot. We had high kicks to the head, but basically roundhouse and side kick. Granted, nearly 50 years may have dulled my memories of what was being taught.

When I started Hapkido, I was surprised at the number of kicks we were being taught. Some of them were indeed high kicks. But I frankly consided them as much limbering exercises as practical, until one day I saw a Korean TKD contestant at the Western Asian Games (about 1987), using heel down kicks to score two points. His opponent had apparently never seen nor defended those kicks either.

All that said, my GM told me several tiimes that the Korean Hapkido GMs and Masters generally preferred mid to low kicks as more effective. They were quite powerful, and could be delivered much more quickly. I think that is even more true as we get older.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

According to those with more time in Hapkido that both of us, yes. Should it be an issue (minor or major), not as far as I'm concerned.

Well, this pretty much cements it in my opinion:

TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.

"...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to fifth dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"

There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.

TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.

April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.

Incorrect, which is why I made the statement I made and stand by it.

With respect.

What is incorrect? That you aren't a hapkidoist? That you should avoid pressing the issue because you arent? Or that it you cosnider it a minor point? Or that hapkido is just a label?

If you practice hapkido, then very cool! I was not aware.

Do you practice hapkido as hapkido or do you practice techniques that have been culled from hapkido and grafted onto your KSD? No value judgement, but if you do the latter then I do not consider that to be practicing hapkido. I ask, not because I don't believe you, but because I have had quite a few people say that they practice hapkido, but further into the discussion, I find out that that they simply learned some HKD techniques in conjunction with TKD. They did, however, consider that to be practicing the art.

 

[puunui]

Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.

I do understand that it was important or a major enough issue for you to write a post announcing that you sent an email to confirm the 6th Dan, and now that the truth and facts are out (GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan), you are trying to downplay it by calling it "minor".

 

[puunui]

"Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks.

What you describe isn't hapkido but rather yukwonsul or yusul.

Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.

The kicks of hapkido were not added in Seoul years later but were practiced in Taegu. The two people who are most credited with the hapkido kicks are GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong, both early students of GM Choi. GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum. As for why GM Ji and GM Kim added kicks, it was because kicking is a part of korean culture, and they both wanted to create an art that was uniquely Korean, which GM Choi approved of, even though he himself did not practice nor teach those kicks.

 

[puunui]

The organizations that issued the rank SHOULD be held accountable - in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.

Why wouldn't the kidohae have no business issuing hapkido rank? After all, the kidohae was created by GM Choi and he was the first president/chair. GM Choi was also endorsed the Korea Hapkido Association, and by extension, its successor organizations. GM Choi was issuing KHA certificates that GM Ji printed for him, including to GM Lim.

 

[puunui]

There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...

Probably just a typo. There is a typo in the Modern History book, where it states that when GM LEE Kyo Yoon came back to Seoul he started teaching "Tang Soo Do" instead of another name. Rather than correct it, we felt that it was probably better to leave it the way it is and explain it afterwards. However, there are people out there who are now asserting that GM Lee taught Tang Soo Do based on that typo, and it is showing up on webpages, books, etc. Perhaps we should correct obvious typos like that, so that people don't run with it and end up getting confused.

But I do think the 6th dan thing was probably a typo, and I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Do you practice hapkido as hapkido or do you practice techniques that have been culled from hapkido and grafted onto your KSD?

The Hapkido (and TKD) came well before we went with KSD.