John Pellegrini

[puunui]

My point was that Hatsumi, and his unique "ranking" system, when being used to justify another persons ranking system, and give it some form of credibility is frankly like saying that Dunkin' Donuts say that your diet should include them, so there's support for the idea.

That's just the point, it's not that unique, and I don't get the Dunkin Donut analogy, but that's ok. I don't really want to argue about it. If you don't like me using Hatsumi Sensei's to make a point, even though you sort of admit the same, then fine.

 

[puunui]

No, I think I'm in a better position to understand and discuss Hatsumi's quotes and their context as I, you know, train in his arts, and have done for close to two decades. And it's the context that I've been discussing, as it kinda undermines the quote you used.

There are other quotes from that same book that explain further his concept of dan rank, but if people want to read it, they can buy his book. It's too long to type out.

One thing. Whenever Hatsumi Sensei addresses his teacher, he always says "Takamatsu Sensei". I notice you simply address him by his last name. It reminds me of this short quote from that same book: "All those times I visited Takamatsu-sensei over those fifteen years, his wife always served me sake, but I never touched it. Now I tell this story to my students as they sip from a cup of sake I have served them."

I guess I could further explain it from a japanese or asian cultural perspective and how it relates to the GM Seo/GM Pelligrini situation as viewed/judged by others, but I am sure that through your training in bujinkan you will conclude that it is not relevant to the point I am making. Please accept my apology for even thinking that I understand japanese culture better than you do.

 

[Chris Parker]

Honestly, Glenn, you really don't want to get into this with me... what Hatsumi writes in his books and what the reality of the situation is is rather different, hence his actions and justifications/reasons not really being something to look to to add credibility to anothers similar actions. As far as my usage or non-usage of particular honorifics, there are reasons I do or don't use them in different situations, circumstances, and locations, but that's all completely beside the point here. If you want, though, you may want to check the particular relationships involved for your first clue.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

One of the best answers I've got so far! Thank you!!!

And thank you for the kind words

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In the June issue of BB magazine there was a very interesting article about John Pellegrini and his brand of Hapkido. He goes on to explain what he does in his system and how its different from the more traditional Hapkido systems. In the magazines to come, there have been many articles submitted by people. Some of them are very supportive of his style while others seem to be very critical about what he has done to the art.

While I am not a student of Mr. Pellegrini or of Hapkido, I have attended a seminar put on by him at a local MA school. Not really knowing what to expect, I went anyway. I have to say that I was very impressed with what I saw. The material that he taught was IMO, pretty straight forward. He covered many defenses while standing as well as on the ground.

My question is, what do the people on this forum think about Mr. Pellegrini and what he has done to the art? Was he wrong to take out some of the more traditional things such as the high kicks, kata, etc. or did he do a good thing?

Mike

Regarding the removal of high kicks and a number of other things, I have read in many places that he did this because these were things that he himself couild not do or do particularly well. Whatever the reason, he has assembled a curriculum that is probably more appropriate for the majority of people simply want to learn an SD oriented art. I haven't watched his tapes; only Youtube clips here and there, so I do not have a very detailed view of CHKD.

I do know that people who are not novices who value SD oriented material and who are not hapkidoin (and thus have no opinion on what GMP is doing to the art) seem to be positively disposed to what they see of CHKD.

Regarding kata, what kata? Hapkido does not traditionally have kata. Well, not in the same way that karate or taekwondo does. I suspect that it has specific two person drills which would be 'kata,' but I think that what you mean by kata are solo forms (I understand that there are some HKD kwans that have solo forms, but that they are the exception and not the rule). If he claims to have 'removed' this element, then it was never really there to remove, so there can be no value judgement here.

Regarding what he has done to the art, I think that he has put together a system which in which average people can attain proficiency, even if they are middle aged and have no MA experience. I consider his video learning to be a good supplement for an instructor, a nice suplement for students learning from an instructor, or a good means for traditional hapkidoin to learn his particular system, but I dislike that he offers it as a means for a complete beginner to learn and rank in his system. I suspect that you or I could pick up his videos, learn and rank in the material, and then meet and practice that material convincingly with other experienced MA-ist. But you are already experienced MA-ist and I have over four years of hapkido training, which is very different from a rank beginner trying to do the same thing.

I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.

Hi Daniel,

Could you expand on this part of your post please. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think this is an area that needs an objective, in-depth look as it touches on GM P as a whole and seems to be a major part of the critism he receives. Thank you.

 

[MJS]

How about when you compare American Kenpo stylists to say, Kajukenbo or some of the styles in Hawaii? Do you see the same level of similarity? I compare Professor Chow's Kempo Karaho to EP Kenpo and I have a hard time seeing how they are related.

Like I said....there will be differences and similarities. Of course, with Kaju, alot depends on which branch you're looking at. But whatever the case, since we're using Kaju as part of the example....I have watched some clips of the Original Method, and as I said, see similar things, but again, there're differences too. Things change, from person to person. One thing I dont see in Kaju as much as I see in Kenpo, is more of what could be called slapping. Kenpo has a habit of being called a 'slap art' by some, because really, when you look at certain people, thats what it looks like...lol. I dont see that in Kaju.

Of course not, but you can tell that they are still Hapkido. But with Kenpo, I see much more diversity and difference than any sort underlying theme, like I can with Hapkido. Perhaps my perspective is skewed with respect to Kenpo. I also think that GM Parker retained very little from Professor Chow's kenpo and/or Kajukenbo that he learned, and Professor Chow evolved away from what he was doing in the late 40's and 50's. I also think you are comparing American Kenpo off shoots and I am comparing American Kenpo to the Kenpo that is here.

The only off shoots would be Mills and Speakman. They still do Kenpo, but watch Jeff do a Kenpo tech and watch Tatum do the same one. You tell me what differences you see. Actually, head over to the Kenpo section. Take a look at the thread on Thundering Hammers. Watch the differences. They're quiet apparent. As for what Parker did/did not retain...can't comment on that. Never met the man unfortunately. I will say this...the guy that I train Kenpo with now moves 1000 times better than alot of the other Kenpo inst. I've trained under.

 

[MJS]

Excellent! Helpful answer #2!! Way to go Dan!

Regarding the removal of high kicks and a number of other things, I have read in many places that he did this because these were things that he himself couild not do or do particularly well. Whatever the reason, he has assembled a curriculum that is probably more appropriate for the majority of people simply want to learn an SD oriented art. I haven't watched his tapes; only Youtube clips here and there, so I do not have a very detailed view of CHKD.

I do know that people who are not novices who value SD oriented material and who are not hapkidoin (and thus have no opinion on what GMP is doing to the art) seem to be positively disposed to what they see of CHKD.

You're probably right. Hell, in Kenpo, there're things that I don't do particularly well, but I still teach those things, despite me questioning the practicality of them...lol. OTOH, usually when I teach something that I personally dont care for, I tend to give the students a peek at what *I* like to do instead. I tell them that its simply another option. I dont like to craft robots, so I let them choose what works for them.

Regarding kata, what kata? Hapkido does not traditionally have kata. Well, not in the same way that karate or taekwondo does. I suspect that it has specific two person drills which would be 'kata,' but I think that what you mean by kata are solo forms (I understand that there are some HKD kwans that have solo forms, but that they are the exception and not the rule). If he claims to have 'removed' this element, then it was never really there to remove, so there can be no value judgement here.

Yeah, I was talking about the traditional empty hand kata that you see in most MA systems.

Regarding what he has done to the art, I think that he has put together a system which in which average people can attain proficiency, even if they are middle aged and have no MA experience. I consider his video learning to be a good supplement for an instructor, a nice suplement for students learning from an instructor, or a good means for traditional hapkidoin to learn his particular system, but I dislike that he offers it as a means for a complete beginner to learn and rank in his system. I suspect that you or I could pick up his videos, learn and rank in the material, and then meet and practice that material convincingly with other experienced MA-ist. But you are already experienced MA-ist and I have over four years of hapkido training, which is very different from a rank beginner trying to do the same thing.

I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the learn by dvd system either, but thats another thread...lol. Yes, I probably could watch and learn, as you could. Now that I think about it, I met a Hapkido guy at the last Arnis Summer camp we had in CT. He's actually a member of this forum, but he doesnt post much. I should've picked his brain a bit during the camp.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hi Daniel,

Could you expand on this part of your post please. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think this is an area that needs an objective, in-depth look as it touches on GM P as a whole and seems to be a major part of the critism he receives. Thank you.

Going from new HKD practitioner to grandmaster in roughly ten years is what I am refering to. He was ranked by other people, so he can say that he didn't give himself the rank, and with ten years in HKD and twenty years in his own system, the point really is moot.... except that people will use his rapid rise in grade to undermine his qualifications and therefore to undermine his system, which prevents the system from being evaluated soley on its own merit. Which is why I feel that it cheapens his system.

It cheapens hapkido as a whole simply by virtue of being another high grade being issued to someone who's qualifications for said grade are considered questionable and the promotions apparently have the appearance of being monetarilly driven. I have no opinion of him aside from that he was very pleasant on the phone and seems to be genuinely interested in helping people who are looking for the sort of thing that he offers.

As for whether or not he should have the rank he holds, it is irrelevant. He has the rank and heads his own organization, and both have been the case now for over twenty years. To those who want to quibble about his rank, I say the following:

Get over yourselves and move on. There nothing good to be gained for either yourselves or for hapkido as an art by dwelling on negative thoughts about GMP. You're obviously happy doing what you are doing and his rank isn't going anywhere. If you are concerned that he is reaching people that you are not, then take the high road and promote as aggressively as he does. If you are not willing to do this, then you should ask yourself why rather than complain about the fact that he does.

If you want to have the taller building, don't tear down the other guy's building, but be willing to build your building taller. Because tearing his building down doesn't make your own building any taller.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Going from new HKD practitioner to grandmaster in roughly ten years is what I am refering to. He was ranked by other people, so he can say that he didn't give himself the rank, and with ten years in HKD and twenty years in his own system, the point really is moot.... except that people will use his rapid rise in grade to undermine his qualifications and therefore to undermine his system, which prevents the system from being evaluated soley on its own merit. Which is why I feel that it cheapens his system.

It cheapens hapkido as a whole simply by virtue of being another high grade being issued to someone who's qualifications for said grade are considered questionable and the promotions apparently have the appearance of being monetarilly driven. I have no opinion of him aside from that he was very pleasant on the phone and seems to be genuinely interested in helping people who are looking for the sort of thing that he offers.

As for whether or not he should have the rank he holds, it is irrelevant. He has the rank and heads his own organization, and both have been the case now for over twenty years. To those who want to quibble about his rank, I say the following:

Get over yourselves and move on. There nothing good to be gained for either yourselves or for hapkido as an art by dwelling on negative thoughts about GMP. You're obviously happy doing what you are doing and his rank isn't going anywhere. If you are concerned that he is reaching people that you are not, then take the high road and promote as aggressively as he does. If you are not willing to do this, then you should ask yourself why rather than complain about the fact that he does.

If you want to have the taller building, don't tear down the other guy's building, but be willing to build your building taller. Because tearing his building down doesn't make your own building any taller.

Very well put, thank you for expounding.

This is the perspective I keep thinking about; According to several seniors in Hapkido (Mike Wollmeershauer, Hal Whalen, Michael Tomlinson, Ian Cyrus, Kevin Sogar etc), John Pellegrini was promoted to 1st and/or 2nd by Mike Wollmeershauer in or around 1990. Depending on who you read, it was either an honorary Dan or a 'real' Dan. I'm not sure why an honorary Dan would be issued, if indeed it was? I can see special circumstances for an honorary Dan being issued. I don't remember the name off the top of my head, but the KKW issued an honorary 10th Dan to someone on the Olympic committee due to their contribution to the art of TKD. I have no issue with this. I've seen honorary Dans issued to people that were ill/terminally ill. I have no issue with this. So if the 1st and/or 2nd was honorary...what was the special reason? If they were 'real' then we have two possibilities really; John Pellegrini passed whatever requirements were needed for the promotion(s) or they were 'given' (for money or charity?). Either he earned them or he didn't. If he earned them then he's as much a Hapkido BB as anyone here according to the requirements set by Mike Wollmeershauer. If he didn't have the skills necessary then the question is...why was he given the rank in the first place? If he then skipped around a bit by org-shopping we need to come to terms with the rank he earned (was given?) was then accepted by those organizations in question. Apparently GM Myung did indeed rank John Pellegrini (from 4th to 6th depending on who your listening to concerning the WHF) Whatever the rank was, it looks like GM Myung did indeed rank him to master status (at least). So again, we have a choice to make; John Pellegrini was worthy of master rank in Hapkido in the eyes of GM Myung (passing whatever requirements were necessary for whatever rank he granted to him)...or GM Myung and the WHF granted master status to someone that didn't earn it. Some say for money? I don't know and it is a moot point now. But those are the two choices realistically available.

Either he earned it or he didn't. If he didn't earn it, he either paid for it or was 'given' it which means those issuing the rank either sold him the rank or degraded the art by issuing BB and/or master status to someone that hadn't earned it. That's what it boils down to on this issue. Regardless of what actually happened, he is now the GM of his own system/art. Those responsible for this happening should back him up completely as they enabled him to get there...or they should be explaining just exactly what happened and why and take responsibility for it.

I'm not saying it was one way or the other. Nor am I casting dispersions on anyone mentioned above. I'm just pointing out that in all likelyhood it is either option A or option B. I can't see option C but I'm open to looking at it if someone has it.

With respect.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Very well put, thank you for expounding.

This is the perspective I keep thinking about; According to several seniors in Hapkido (Mike Wollmeershauer, Hal Whalen, Michael Tomlinson, Ian Cyrus, Kevin Sogar etc), John Pellegrini was promoted to 1st and/or 2nd by Mike Wollmeershauer in or around 1990. Depending on who you read, it was either an honorary Dan or a 'real' Dan. I'm not sure why an honorary Dan would be issued, if indeed it was? I can see special circumstances for an honorary Dan being issued. I don't remember the name off the top of my head, but the KKW issued an honorary 10th Dan to someone on the Olympic committee due to their contribution to the art of TKD. I have no issue with this. I've seen honorary Dans issued to people that were ill/terminally ill. I have no issue with this. So if the 1st and/or 2nd was honorary...what was the special reason? If they were 'real' then we have two possibilities really; John Pellegrini passed whatever requirements were needed for the promotion(s) or they were 'given' (for money or charity?). Either he earned them or he didn't. If he earned them then he's as much a Hapkido BB as anyone here according to the requirements set by Mike Wollmeershauer. If he didn't have the skills necessary then the question is...why was he given the rank in the first place?

Given that a first dan is a beginning dan, it isn't even worth discussing. Honorary dans are given for a variety of reasons. The Kukkiwon issued an honorary first dan to President Obama. Ed Parker issued an honorary 8th dan to Elvis Presley. The IOC member you mention is Ron or Rob and I cannot remember his last name. He was instrumental in taekwondo becomming an Olympic event.

If he then skipped around a bit by org-shopping we need to come to terms with the rank he earned (was given?) was then accepted by those organizations in question. Apparently GM Myung did indeed rank John Pellegrini (from 4th to 6th depending on who your listening to concerning the WHF) Whatever the rank was, it looks like GM Myung did indeed rank him to master status (at least). So again, we have a choice to make; John Pellegrini was worthy of master rank in Hapkido in the eyes of GM Myung (passing whatever requirements were necessary for whatever rank he granted to him)...or GM Myung and the WHF granted master status to someone that didn't earn it. Some say for money? I don't know and it is a moot point now. But those are the two choices realistically available.

So who brought him up to fourth? Why did Myung skip him from fourth to sixth? Or did he promote him first to fifth? And who promoted him to seventh and eighth? Or was he skipped directly from sixth to ninth? Or did he go from first to sixth to ninth? If I were a CHKD historian, I would really want to know. But I'm not, so I will leave it to minds who care about such things to hash it out.

Either he earned it or he didn't. If he didn't earn it, he either paid for it or was 'given' it which means those issuing the rank either sold him the rank or degraded the art by issuing BB and/or master status to someone that hadn't earned it. That's what it boils down to on this issue. Regardless of what actually happened, he is now the GM of his own system/art. Those responsible for this happening should back him up completely as they enabled him to get there...or they should be explaining just exactly what happened and why and take responsibility for it.

I'm not saying it was one way or the other. Nor am I casting dispersions on anyone mentioned above. I'm just pointing out that in all likelyhood it is either option A or option B. I can't see option C but I'm open to looking at it if someone has it.

With respect.

You earn the skills that you have. Some people may reward you with rank along the way. You cannot teach what you don't know. If GMP put together his system on his own and created the marketing scheme, then he is very good at organizing and promoting. He is also apparently good at running an organization. Not everyone has these skills.

He has an organization and a system that serves his customer base. I play with swords and wish him the best.

 

[dancingalone]

The IOC member you mention is Ron or Rob and I cannot remember his last name. He was instrumental in taekwondo becomming an Olympic event.

I think that was Juan Antonio Samaranch, http://<a href=&quot;[url]http://en...wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch</a>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch. Reading his wikipedia article, it seems like he was awarded a peerage and a bunch of other recognitions by various national governments as well.

 

[puunui]

Honestly, Glenn, you really don't want to get into this with me...

You're right, I don't want to get into this with you. Thank you for understanding.

what Hatsumi writes in his books and what the reality of the situation is is rather different, hence his actions and justifications/reasons not really being something to look to to add credibility to anothers similar actions.

Ok, so a punch isn't a punch and a kick isn't a kick. Got it.

As far as my usage or non-usage of particular honorifics, there are reasons I do or don't use them in different situations, circumstances, and locations, but that's all completely beside the point here.

From an asian or japanese cultural perspective, I was taught to always use honorifics or titles towards your teachers and seniors. But that's just me and apparently it is the same for Hatsumi Sensei, since he stills addresses his teacher as Takamatsu Sensei even though he had passed away years ago. Sometimes in samurai shows and they will address another person by their first name only. It isn't meant as a term of disrespect, but something else. Back in the day, everyone knows who you are referring to if someone said "Ieyasu" or "Nobunaga" or "Shingen". Similarly, if you say "glenn", pretty much people know who you are talking about. But you do something different, you call people by their last names only, depending on the situation, circumstance or location, no doubt because this is what you were taught or developed on your own.

If you want, though, you may want to check the particular relationships involved for your first clue.

No, I don't want, but thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Given that a first dan is a beginning dan, it isn't even worth discussing.

The only reason I bring it up is that several people have verified that he was in fact issued (given?) and first and/or second Dan in Hapkido. So we can safety assume he didn't just use his printer and make it up.

So who brought him up to fourth? Why did Myung skip him from fourth to sixth? Or did he promote him first to fifth? And who promoted him to seventh and eighth? Or was he skipped directly from sixth to ninth? Or did he go from first to sixth to ninth? If I were a CHKD historian, I would really want to know.

In reference to the part of your quote I put in bold, that would be a very reasonable request. As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy. But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, simply reading what those other individuals stated that were closer to the actual happenings. So, if this is indeed the facts of the matter then he was promoted to some level of master status in Hapkido by a recognized Hapkido senior. If that's the case (?) then it would be hard to say anything negative against John Pellegrini without looking towards those that allowed him to that position.

His rank above what GM Myung (or others?) promoted him to? I don't know as it seems fuzzy. It seems that the GM Seo did the GM thing? At any rate, like you've stated, it is what it is and it has been that way now for around 20 years.

Did make for a long running thread though

 

[puunui]

As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy. But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th.

It isn't fuzzy. You said GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan. I said that was incorrect. You said you would check with ironox, since he was your source of information, and ironox declined to confirm the 6th Dan. Where is the fuzziness? GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It isn't fuzzy. You said GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan. I said that was incorrect. You said you would check with ironox, since he was your source of information, and ironox declined to confirm the 6th Dan. Where is the fuzziness? GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan.

No, it is very fuzzy. Or we can use the word 'nebulous' if you prefer, or any word that describes a situation that isn't fully established with factual particulars. On page 2 of this thread I indicated that a fellow MT member had made the statement that GM Myung had promoted John Pellegrini to 6th Dan and then provided a link. On page 6 of this thread, post #82 that member (Iron Ox) posted numerous statements from other senior Hapkidoin. Michael Tomlinson places John Pellegrino at 5th under GM Myung. GM Whalen does place John Pellegrino under GM Myung as well and relays some information that he witness first hand. So the 'fuzzy part' pertains to the actual number of the Dan grade. What appears to be factual, according to many that were there (or discussed the matter with those that were there) is that GM Myung promoted John Pellegrino to master status in Hapkido. If you disagree, I would suggest taking the matter directly to those individuals that made the statments.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that was Juan Antonio Samaranch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch. Reading his wikipedia article, it seems like he was awarded a peerage and a bunch of other recognitions by various national governments as well.

Yes, that was him. I don't know where I got Rob or Ron.

Thanks!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The only reason I bring it up is that several people have verified that he was in fact issued (given?) and first and/or second Dan in Hapkido. So we can safety assume he didn't just use his printer and make it up.

Making it up is the one thing that nobody has accused him of. I suspect that he went to pains to obtain rank from others specifically to avoid this.

The reason that I feel that it is not worth discussing is because at first dan, you are still very much just a beginner, so the idea that his first dan is some grossly undeserved or some kind of rank buy is, as I said, not worth discussing. The only thing that I consider worth discussing is when it was issued in relation to when his gudan was issued.

Except that there's nothing to discuss. He got his first dan in the early eighties and his gudan roughly a decade later and established CHKD shortly afterward and has been GM of CHKD for the past twenty years. I'm far less interested at this point in what happened between 1979 and 1992 than I am in how he comports himself as the head of his own system and how well his organization takes care of its members. From what I understand, his members are very pleased with him as an organizational head.

In reference to the part of your quote I put in bold, that would be a very reasonable request. As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy. But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th. I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, simply reading what those other individuals stated that were closer to the actual happenings. So, if this is indeed the facts of the matter then he was promoted to some level of master status in Hapkido by a recognized Hapkido senior. If that's the case (?) then it would be hard to say anything negative against John Pellegrini without looking towards those that allowed him to that position.

Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier. You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him. Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors. And those who say such things know it. I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing. Whether or not it is appropriate or what not is something that I will let others here hash out.

Look, organizations promote people for all kinds of reasons. It could be that he ran his concept by Seo and Seo thought it was an incredibly good idea and wanted to help him get it going. In doing so, his organization would be friendly with Pellegrini's and mutual respect between them is something that Seo may have felt would be beneficial to both organizations. Perhaps he simply wanted to show support for the fledgling organization for the purpose of promoting the martial arts.

Whatever. Twenty years down the pike, the only thing that matters is how good GMP is at running his organization. By the looks of it, video learning not withstanding, he seems to be motivated primarily by the desire to promote the arts and to do right by his membership. I wish him well.

His rank above what GM Myung (or others?) promoted him to? I don't know as it seems fuzzy. It seems that the GM Seo did the GM thing?

From the mouth of GMP himself, yes.

At any rate, like you've stated, it is what it is and it has been that way now for around 20 years.

Based on my conversation with him on first hand accounts of seminars from people that I know and have trained with, I would look forward to training with him if I had the opportunity. He was very decent to me in our conversation and people that I know who have attended his seminars said that working with him was a very positive experience and they learned a lot.

It all sounds good to me.

 

[puunui]

No, it is very fuzzy. Or we can use the word 'nebulous' if you prefer, or any word that describes a situation that isn't fully established with factual particulars.

I would say that for you, it is fuzzy, since you are getting all these conflicting reports. What isn't fuzzy is that GM Pelligrini was NOT promoted to 6th Dan by GM Myung, because the person you cited has since deferred to others with more personal knowledge. GM Pellegrini's promotions through GM Seo is also fuzzy for you, but not me. Every time GM Pellegrini was promoted by GM Seo, there was mention of it in Taekwondo Times, most times complete with photo.

 

[puunui]

Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier. You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him. Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors. And those who say such things know it. I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing.

I realize that Parker Sensei may disagree, but there is a very detailed explanation given by Hatsumi Sensei on promotions within his organization which is applicable to the present discussion. I believe there have been students who have gone from white belt or beginner to 10th Dan in his system in two or three years. In his book, which is basically a long interview conducted by Sensei Stephen Hayes, Hatsumi Sensei explains why he does it.