John Pellegrini

[puunui]

But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini? I guess.

What rank did GM Myung promote GM Pellegrini to? Was it 6th Dan? I think that was the question that was being emailed to you.

Did Pellegrini have the time or training in? Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?

Well, let's compare your own training with GM Lim. You go to Korea every year, since what 2004. Say that is 8 trips. I don't know how long you stay but let's say 7 training days. That is 56 days of training. Some people would say that 56 days of training would be enough for maybe an orange belt or green belt. Is that your Jungkikwan rank from GM Lim?

What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea. He was consistent during his life in ranking people. That seems certain. Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.

There are some other questions, but let's start with this one: One person starts Hapkido in 1990 and gets 1st Dan in 1995, continues training, but no further promotions. Another starts in 2005 and gets up to 2nd Dan in 2012. Who is more senior in your opinion?

The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business.

Must be really high, because if it were reasonable, you would tell us.

I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.

I am sure GM Seo and GM Pellegrini are happy with their arrangement, but that didn't stop you from criticizing them. Interesting that you do almost the same thing, and when that is raised, you get defensive.

I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.

My research into Hapkido is also not based on the word of one man. I will add this, I find it interesting that you say GM Lim, GM Wollmershauser, GM Adams, Choi Dojunim, but then refer to GM Myung as Myung, GM Seo as Seo, and GM Pellegrini as Pellegrini. Why is that?

This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.

We can start up a new thread if you want. I'm sure there are lots of people interested in the Jungkikwan.

 

[iron_ox]

I generally like to be absolutely certain of that sort of thing before posting it.

Here are a few quotes from around the net from some reputable sources about Pellegrini and rank:

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am often very quiet about the goings on DD but there are times when
silence is not an option. Master Tomlinson, I appreciate your chronology of Mr. Pelligrini's history but there are a few facts that was left out. Before I say
anything let me make perfectly clear that I have no issue with Mr Pelligrini.
he is where is because "the system" permitted it. I will add to what Master
Tomlinson wrote because it's history and if it will help someone to make an
informed decision, I am all for it. What I have to add is based on my own
personal experience with him.

Mr. Pelligrini was also a member of the World Oriental Martial Arts
Federation (WOMAF) and the Korean Hapkido Federation (KHF) both led by GMs Sang Kook Kim and James Garrison or Portland, Oregon. He became a member of WOMAF and KHF circa 1990 then a 1st dan issued by GM Michael Wollmershauser who led the AHA. In 1992, Mr. tested for his 2nd dan at a seminar led by GM Garrison at seminar in Las Vegas. I, then a 5th dan, was a member of the exam board. Mr. Pellegrini was issued a provisional 2nd dan because is performance at the exam was not satisfactory. He was extended this privilege based on GM Arthur Gitlin and my recommendation. GM Garrison was against this idea but he went along with it.

Shortly after that weekend GM Gitlin received a letter from Mr. Pellegrini resigning his membership on the ground that standards set by GM Garrison was too high and therefore unattainable. That's I know personally.

Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster
IKMAF

Mike T writes;

Actually I witnessed Pelligrini recieve his 1st Dan black belt in Hapkido in 1989 to 1990 from Mike Wollmershauser..it was after a 5 day seminar in Orange City Florida at Chester Holubecki's Isshinryu Dojo..check around..the truth "should" set you free..did I use the word free?? At that time Pelligrini had NO Hapkido experience at ALL. He owned a TKD dojang in south Florida and came up to get some Hapkido training...HE KNEW NO HAPKIDO THEN, he didn't even know how to take a fall!! I was there in person and saw it..period. After his quick "honorary" second dan from the AHA in about 1991 he jumped to the WHF.. I have a black belt in Hapkido from the WHF in 1992 from Master Hal Whalen who was the instructor of the year in that organization at the time and is on all the early WHF video's assisting Kwang Sik Myung. So no offense to Peter Donello but your facts are all WRONG!! In the mid 80's Pelligrini hadn't even smelled any Hapkido yet...he should of possibly been a blue belt and taking falls about that time but he chose a different route and that is the reason you won't get a lot of us old timers to buy into the hype and propaganda. Pay your dues on the mat not on the credit card and then you will earn the respect of all of us...that is the advice I have for EVERYONE who is interested in Hapkido regardless of rank, organization, or anything else...IF you do that you are my Hapkido brother if you don't than you are just a salesman with a nice marketing idea that I don't respect anymore than a used car salesman trying to pawn off a 74 vega on me...don't tell me because someone is a good salesman that somehow that makes their Hapkido legitimate...PLEASE...that is straight bullsh-t.
Michael Tomlinson

More from Michael Tomlinson

I feel what Dakin is saying and I agree..work out with who you want, spend
your money on what you want...BUT please don't get defensive and mad when guys on here tell you the truth who were there and not gossiping but
informing people of the "actual history" it's a service to people to hear
this information and not a bashing on anyone....I'm getting too old for all
that!!!

..I don't think Pelligrini got his BB in 1988 but I could be mistaken...the
only way I know about all of this is because I was personally there on the
mat when it all happened...Orange City...Chester Holubecki's Dojo...it was
where MY instructor taught HKD at that time...we worked out there 3 times a
week religiously and a lot of times on Saturday too, every class was 2 and a
half hours or more...once a year Mike Wollmershauser came down to do a three to five day AHA seminar...Chester was from Springfield Mass, Mike W. was from Springfield Mass, and my instructor Steve Mortel who was one of Hal Whalen's first black belts, had moved to my area of Florida from
Boston....lot's of Mass. guys who knew each other....that's why we were at
an Isshin Ryu Karate Dojo doing "real" HKD..plus Chester had some really
good mats which were hard to find in the early 90's and late 80's...anywho
Pelligrini owned a tkd school in Sunrise Florida and ONLY came up for the
seminar..no one in our area knew him at all....I saw him recieve his 1st dan
from Mike W..Pelligrini didn't do HKD then,..and knew nothing about HKD
before that seminar.

..by 1992 I was testing for my 1st dan with Hal Whalen
and we were in the WHF under Kwang Sik Myung...Pelligrini was NOW in the WHF so I was aware of his entire HKD history in the very early stages....ask
yourself this??? Pelligrini recieved his 1st and 2nd dan in the AHA...and
they were basically honorary...then he jumped to the WHF when Mike W.
wouldn't promote him anymore, where did I hear this? From Mike W.
personally...no worries..doesn't concern me and I have nothing but good
things to say about Mike W., he treated me great and showed me some awesome HKD..plus he was good friends with Hal Whalen and Steve Mortel...by 1993 or so Pelligrini was now a 4th or 5th dan in HKD under Myung....did I agree with this???

No, was it my business, no....so whatever..BUT...he was in the
AHA and the WHF and that is the ONLY place he trained in HKD before he
started his own thing....ok...fast tracked with two honorary HKD black belts
in the AHA and skipped to 4th and 5th in the WHF,,, ALL WITHIN ABOUT 6
YEARS!!! I'm not saying anything about anyone on here...it is just the
facts.....just one question more and I'll stop..... Why doesn't Pelligrini
state these facts on his website???? I read all the info on his link with
all his accolades and accomplishments and history...why would he not put his
training on there with the AHA and the WHF....it doesn't make sense to me
that you would leave off the two organizations where you recieved your
actual HKD training???? Why is that??? Just some facts and questions....again...I don't care who or where anyone trains with....it's
all up to you..if you love training with him that is great and I am happy
for you..but putting advertisements on here about a seminar with marketing
stuff that some of us old timers no better will get these kind of facts
stated everytime...it's not bashing...it's our duty as old time HKD people
to let EVERYONE know...you make your own choices and decisions...but at
least you know the truth...

Michael Tomlinson

From Hal Whalen

As I read the posts from both Master Dakin Burdik and Master Mike Tomlinson ,I would first like to thank them for their compliments and kind Words.

As far as john Pelligirini goes ,A couple of things had been overlooked John
was once involved with Master Garrison out of Oregon ,Before he became involved with Master Myung and The WHFand was asked to leave.

There are reasons Master Myung Has never come out publicly I will go into a
little detail ,I was first a member of the WHF and the first Non-Korean to
receive 5TH Dan from them in 1987,This is before Pelligrini was even a member or in Hapkido he was still TKD

I first Met John in Jan or Feb of 1991 at a seminar held in Ca. at the World
Hapkido Federations Dojang ,It was a two day instructors course along with
annual Banquet. john moved Best when a Camera came out It made most of the People at the seminar laugh

I was there with several of My Black Belt students john was partnered up with Donald Hahn ,I remember Him complaining about his wrist and the fact he would only use one side doing Techniques ,And when we kicked someone said I thought He did Tae Kwon Do but his kicks "SUCKED"

After about ten minutes Donald Switched partners so we were paired up ,Don's reaction was Now we Do Hapkido he was upset That even before he applied the Technique or pressure John would tap out ,or he would have too guided to the Floor because He did not Seem to know how fall .Don and I did " Balls To walls " Hapkido the way it was meant to be every time Master Myung Had people switch he would look over at us . and "Say Not you Two"

That evening was the Instructors Banquet held at a local restaurant the guest
Speaker was Hwang,Duk Kyu the President of The KHA at that time . While dinner was going on John mentioned He was upset about the possibility we would be forced to do forms that Myung made up . He asked me Since you are the Senior American would you please approach Master Myung ,Which I did the Following day.

The next Day I approached Master Myung and Mentioned some of the Instructors asked if We could not do the Forms , And he said those that wish not to do the Forms please step over to the Wall ,John did not move he stood there to give the impression it was all me ,This was his lame attempt to either Knock me down or discredit me , He could not do it on the Mat.

That was the Beginning of my lost of respect for him.Master Myung held a
seminar in New York in or around 1992 at a Dojang owned by someone John had promoted to first or second Dan . Two of My Black Belts were there I could not make it My wife was Pregnant and Due .. Not one of the Students there could fall And My Black Belts stepped up to assisit Master Myung in teaching A seminar on how to fall ,They were disappointed since little or No hapkido would be taught ,It was around this time He was either asked to leave or suggested ,If I had any respect for him it was lost ,



What exactly was I being asked about and why should I be certain about a rank from Kwang Sik Myung?? Does it really matter what rank Pellegrini got from Myung? Not really, but I'm not sure that is the discussion here; but not to get too far sidetracked, Pellegrini got low honorary rank from Master Mike Wollmershauser, some mid rank from Myung Kwang Sik (the level of which is clearly know better by others that were there) and a 10th Dan from a man with a 3rd dan in Hapkido...so go figure if the rank Pellegrini has is valid.

If the "number of the ranlk that was awarded by Myung is important, I can drop Hal Whalen a line and ask him...but his statement above seems pretty clear.

Do you want to know if Myung "sold" rank?? if thats the question, my personal experience was, about 8 years ago I trained someone to test with Myung for 4th Dan. I thought it was going to be a face to face test. It turns out that the two had not seen each other in years and the test was on video tape - fo Master rank, so in my opinion that consitutes selling rank, yep.

How's that for being certain?

 

[iron_ox]

puunui, Before I worry about any of your questions, who are you? You want to question my background, lets start with your name and your background. And before you start a thread about me or the Jungki Kwan, understand I do not speak for the organization, I am a member, if you live in the US or Europe, or Korea, go to a Jungki Kwan Dojang for information.

Actually, sorry, I did a quick check, I believe you are Glenn Uesugi correct? I notice you have tried to derail a few other threads you didn't agree with someone by making the thread about them, so if you really want to bicker with me, take it to PM so I can ignore you there. If you are Glenn Uesugi, I understand why you might want to "question" me given my stance on certain things! LOL

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank will not be issued without said payment, then technically, it can be called selling rank. Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.

Let's make sure we're clear on this. There is a difference between 'selling rank' and charging for a proper evaluation.

I think you missed where I said that 'technically, it can be called selling rank.'

The reason is that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "proper evaluation."

An instructor, qualified in the art in question and of sufficient rank to administer the test who in turn actually tests the skills of the individual is entitled to be compensated for the test and time involved IF they want to be compensated.

If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?

Or, if the instructor is going to promote a higher ranking individual where a physical test is unnecessary or impractical (for a variety of reasons) the instructor can use other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.

All of which is subjective.

Selling rank is quite different. It could involve an 'airport' promotion. Or a back room, under the table or good ole boy promotion for cold hard cash or a cut of the school profits from the new 'master'. Considerations such as skill level, experience, teaching ability, time in grade/arts are not a factor as much as how much money can be made.

And unless you are present for the promotion in question and know the minds of the people involved, how can you determine this? Perhaps the promting master was going on other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.

We need to be clear as to what is acceptable and what is shady (at least in most people's eyes). Uechi Kanei Sensei promoted people from zero to Godan (5th Dan) in the 50's. However, they had just converted to the Dan/Kyu system. The practitioners that received Godan were Seniors in the art that had studied under Uechi Kanbun Sensei. And it was necessary to fill in the hierarchy of the art. This is acceptable. Examples of what (by most people) is unacceptable abound, unfortunately, in the arts.

I agree. But on what criteria do you judge what is acceptable or unacceptable?

Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?
What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth dan simply because you are the head of the organization?
What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them bestow rank upon you?
How about mailing it in? Literally. A video of you doing the required techniques. Chuck Norris is reputed to have done this.

The level of skill, or lack of skill from GM P at this point, as has been stated is moot. He has his own art/organization which people have found value in and through. In order to question him would be to question those that promoted him to the various levels. I will say one thing for consideration; it has been brought up that he has weak hands due to injury and cannot perform some techniques and has found ways around that disability. I don't have an issue with that as it would do well for smaller men or women with weaker hands or those that have a similar disability.

To be clear, I have no issues whatsoever with GMP's promotions.

As for questioning those who promoted him, there are people who do. I am not one of them. At the end of the day, the people who promoted him have to live with the decisions that they made, not I. And he has to live with whatever he did to obtain rank from those people, not I.

There aren't very many physical schools teaching Cheon Tu Kwan hapkido; most of the people who train in it do so via video. If you are willing to train via video, for whatever reason, then chances are, how the instructor obtained his or her rank is probably unimportant to you; primary considerations for video students usually are convenience and cost effectiveness.

 

[iron_ox]

I think you missed where I said that 'technically, it can be called selling rank.'

The reason is that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "proper evaluation."

Is that "proper evaluation" in the eyes of the person issuing the rank? Yes? In Gumdo, for example, the Korea Gumdo Assoc. has very defined criteria as I am told for rank progression, and the fees that are to be paid to the association for the rank, I think many of these fees go to the panels time, the certificate, administration stuff, but thats if you actually go and test in front of them I assume.

If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?

Interesting thought, so a fee is relevant if you just go and do a grading? Do your students grade with you or go elsewhere, and do you charge them? I'm not asking prices, just how you see this being put into practice.

Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?
What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth dan simply because you are the head of the organization?
What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them bestow rank upon you?
How about mailing it in? Literally. A video of you doing the required techniques. Chuck Norris is reputed to have done this.

Does it matter if someone starts their own ORG. then issues grades out of that ORG. to you? Just wanted your take on that idea.

To be clear, I have no issues whatsoever with GMP's promotions.

As for questioning those who promoted him, there are people who do. I am not one of them. At the end of the day, the people who promoted him have to live with the decisions that they made, not I. And he has to live with whatever he did to obtain rank from those people, not I.

There aren't very many physical schools teaching Cheon Tu Kwan hapkido; most of the people who train in it do so via video. If you are willing to train via video, for whatever reason, then chances are, how the instructor obtained his or her rank is probably unimportant to you; primary considerations for video students usually are convenience and cost effectiveness.

You study the art that is directly affected by such things. Hapkido is directly affected when this sort of thing happens and everyone says "its just rank, or its just political, or we should all just train more and see each other on the mat" - that's fine, but the fact is that people in the art already might be able to say that, people that are new to Hapkido think such things as 10th dans hold water in this art from organizations that have a training space in Korea that the certificates are issued from...this sort of thing has diluted the entire art!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here are a few quotes from around the net from some reputable sources about Pellegrini and rank:

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am often very quiet about the goings on DD but there are times when
silence is not an option. Master Tomlinson, I appreciate your chronology of Mr. Pelligrini's history but there are a few facts that was left out. Before I say
anything let me make perfectly clear that I have no issue with Mr Pelligrini.
he is where is because "the system" permitted it. I will add to what Master
Tomlinson wrote because it's history and if it will help someone to make an
informed decision, I am all for it. What I have to add is based on my own
personal experience with him.

Mr. Pelligrini was also a member of the World Oriental Martial Arts
Federation (WOMAF) and the Korean Hapkido Federation (KHF) both led by GMs Sang Kook Kim and James Garrison or Portland, Oregon. He became a member of WOMAF and KHF circa 1990 then a 1st dan issued by GM Michael Wollmershauser who led the AHA. In 1992, Mr. tested for his 2nd dan at a seminar led by GM Garrison at seminar in Las Vegas. I, then a 5th dan, was a member of the exam board. Mr. Pellegrini was issued a provisional 2nd dan because is performance at the exam was not satisfactory. He was extended this privilege based on GM Arthur Gitlin and my recommendation. GM Garrison was against this idea but he went along with it.

Shortly after that weekend GM Gitlin received a letter from Mr. Pellegrini resigning his membership on the ground that standards set by GM Garrison was too high and therefore unattainable. That's I know personally.

Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster
IKMAF

Mike T writes;

Actually I witnessed Pelligrini recieve his 1st Dan black belt in Hapkido in 1989 to 1990 from Mike Wollmershauser..it was after a 5 day seminar in Orange City Florida at Chester Holubecki's Isshinryu Dojo..check around..the truth "should" set you free..did I use the word free?? At that time Pelligrini had NO Hapkido experience at ALL. He owned a TKD dojang in south Florida and came up to get some Hapkido training...HE KNEW NO HAPKIDO THEN, he didn't even know how to take a fall!! I was there in person and saw it..period. After his quick "honorary" second dan from the AHA in about 1991 he jumped to the WHF.. I have a black belt in Hapkido from the WHF in 1992 from Master Hal Whalen who was the instructor of the year in that organization at the time and is on all the early WHF video's assisting Kwang Sik Myung. So no offense to Peter Donello but your facts are all WRONG!! In the mid 80's Pelligrini hadn't even smelled any Hapkido yet...he should of possibly been a blue belt and taking falls about that time but he chose a different route and that is the reason you won't get a lot of us old timers to buy into the hype and propaganda. Pay your dues on the mat not on the credit card and then you will earn the respect of all of us...that is the advice I have for EVERYONE who is interested in Hapkido regardless of rank, organization, or anything else...IF you do that you are my Hapkido brother if you don't than you are just a salesman with a nice marketing idea that I don't respect anymore than a used car salesman trying to pawn off a 74 vega on me...don't tell me because someone is a good salesman that somehow that makes their Hapkido legitimate...PLEASE...that is straight bullsh-t.
Michael Tomlinson

More from Michael Tomlinson

I feel what Dakin is saying and I agree..work out with who you want, spend
your money on what you want...BUT please don't get defensive and mad when guys on here tell you the truth who were there and not gossiping but
informing people of the "actual history" it's a service to people to hear
this information and not a bashing on anyone....I'm getting too old for all
that!!!

..I don't think Pelligrini got his BB in 1988 but I could be mistaken...the
only way I know about all of this is because I was personally there on the
mat when it all happened...Orange City...Chester Holubecki's Dojo...it was
where MY instructor taught HKD at that time...we worked out there 3 times a
week religiously and a lot of times on Saturday too, every class was 2 and a
half hours or more...once a year Mike Wollmershauser came down to do a three to five day AHA seminar...Chester was from Springfield Mass, Mike W. was from Springfield Mass, and my instructor Steve Mortel who was one of Hal Whalen's first black belts, had moved to my area of Florida from
Boston....lot's of Mass. guys who knew each other....that's why we were at
an Isshin Ryu Karate Dojo doing "real" HKD..plus Chester had some really
good mats which were hard to find in the early 90's and late 80's...anywho
Pelligrini owned a tkd school in Sunrise Florida and ONLY came up for the
seminar..no one in our area knew him at all....I saw him recieve his 1st dan
from Mike W..Pelligrini didn't do HKD then,..and knew nothing about HKD
before that seminar.

..by 1992 I was testing for my 1st dan with Hal Whalen
and we were in the WHF under Kwang Sik Myung...Pelligrini was NOW in the WHF so I was aware of his entire HKD history in the very early stages....ask
yourself this??? Pelligrini recieved his 1st and 2nd dan in the AHA...and
they were basically honorary...then he jumped to the WHF when Mike W.
wouldn't promote him anymore, where did I hear this? From Mike W.
personally...no worries..doesn't concern me and I have nothing but good
things to say about Mike W., he treated me great and showed me some awesome HKD..plus he was good friends with Hal Whalen and Steve Mortel...by 1993 or so Pelligrini was now a 4th or 5th dan in HKD under Myung....did I agree with this???

No, was it my business, no....so whatever..BUT...he was in the
AHA and the WHF and that is the ONLY place he trained in HKD before he
started his own thing....ok...fast tracked with two honorary HKD black belts
in the AHA and skipped to 4th and 5th in the WHF,,, ALL WITHIN ABOUT 6
YEARS!!! I'm not saying anything about anyone on here...it is just the
facts.....just one question more and I'll stop..... Why doesn't Pelligrini
state these facts on his website???? I read all the info on his link with
all his accolades and accomplishments and history...why would he not put his
training on there with the AHA and the WHF....it doesn't make sense to me
that you would leave off the two organizations where you recieved your
actual HKD training???? Why is that??? Just some facts and questions....again...I don't care who or where anyone trains with....it's
all up to you..if you love training with him that is great and I am happy
for you..but putting advertisements on here about a seminar with marketing
stuff that some of us old timers no better will get these kind of facts
stated everytime...it's not bashing...it's our duty as old time HKD people
to let EVERYONE know...you make your own choices and decisions...but at
least you know the truth...

Michael Tomlinson

From Hal Whalen

As I read the posts from both Master Dakin Burdik and Master Mike Tomlinson ,I would first like to thank them for their compliments and kind Words.

As far as john Pelligirini goes ,A couple of things had been overlooked John
was once involved with Master Garrison out of Oregon ,Before he became involved with Master Myung and The WHFand was asked to leave.

There are reasons Master Myung Has never come out publicly I will go into a
little detail ,I was first a member of the WHF and the first Non-Korean to
receive 5TH Dan from them in 1987,This is before Pelligrini was even a member or in Hapkido he was still TKD

I first Met John in Jan or Feb of 1991 at a seminar held in Ca. at the World
Hapkido Federations Dojang ,It was a two day instructors course along with
annual Banquet. john moved Best when a Camera came out It made most of the People at the seminar laugh

I was there with several of My Black Belt students john was partnered up with Donald Hahn ,I remember Him complaining about his wrist and the fact he would only use one side doing Techniques ,And when we kicked someone said I thought He did Tae Kwon Do but his kicks "SUCKED"

After about ten minutes Donald Switched partners so we were paired up ,Don's reaction was Now we Do Hapkido he was upset That even before he applied the Technique or pressure John would tap out ,or he would have too guided to the Floor because He did not Seem to know how fall .Don and I did " Balls To walls " Hapkido the way it was meant to be every time Master Myung Had people switch he would look over at us . and "Say Not you Two"

That evening was the Instructors Banquet held at a local restaurant the guest
Speaker was Hwang,Duk Kyu the President of The KHA at that time . While dinner was going on John mentioned He was upset about the possibility we would be forced to do forms that Myung made up . He asked me Since you are the Senior American would you please approach Master Myung ,Which I did the Following day.

The next Day I approached Master Myung and Mentioned some of the Instructors asked if We could not do the Forms , And he said those that wish not to do the Forms please step over to the Wall ,John did not move he stood there to give the impression it was all me ,This was his lame attempt to either Knock me down or discredit me , He could not do it on the Mat.

That was the Beginning of my lost of respect for him.Master Myung held a
seminar in New York in or around 1992 at a Dojang owned by someone John had promoted to first or second Dan . Two of My Black Belts were there I could not make it My wife was Pregnant and Due .. Not one of the Students there could fall And My Black Belts stepped up to assisit Master Myung in teaching A seminar on how to fall ,They were disappointed since little or No hapkido would be taught ,It was around this time He was either asked to leave or suggested ,If I had any respect for him it was lost ,



What exactly was I being asked about and why should I be certain about a rank from Kwang Sik Myung?? Does it really matter what rank Pellegrini got from Myung? Not really, but I'm not sure that is the discussion here; but not to get too far sidetracked, Pellegrini got low honorary rank from Master Mike Wollmershauser, some mid rank from Myung Kwang Sik (the level of which is clearly know better by others that were there) and a 10th Dan from a man with a 3rd dan in Hapkido...so go figure if the rank Pellegrini has is valid.

If the "number of the ranlk that was awarded by Myung is important, I can drop Hal Whalen a line and ask him...but his statement above seems pretty clear.

Do you want to know if Myung "sold" rank?? if thats the question, my personal experience was, about 8 years ago I trained someone to test with Myung for 4th Dan. I thought it was going to be a face to face test. It turns out that the two had not seen each other in years and the test was on video tape - fo Master rank, so in my opinion that consitutes selling rank, yep.

How's that for being certain?

Okay by me.

I was responding to your comment of

'But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini? I guess.'

When people say, 'I guess,' it sounds uncertain in and of itself.

As I said earlier, people need to live with the decisions that they make. GMP obtained his hapkido rank in whatever way it was that he obtained it. Since he wasn't a decades long HKD practitioner at the time, I'm sure that he and whoever ranked him were aware that the promotions might raise a few eyebrows. They have to live with that. Perhaps they are perfectly content in their arrangements and see no issue with them whatsoever. Or perhaps not.

My former GM is in my age range (below 45). He broke from the IHF and the FIK, started his own hapkido and kendo federations and declared himself 9th dan by virtue of being the organizational head. How a 34 years old at the time man is a 9th dan in kendo and hapkido and why he broke from those organizations is a question that he will have to answer to those who ask. I received eight years of very good instruction from him, along with a fouth dan ranking in his kendo program. I am on my own now, but I have an open invitation to go back and train with him. As far as I am concerned, I received what I paid for: eight years of very good instruction, an opportunity to teach classes for several years, an inside knowledge of how a dojo functions, and credentials in the form of a fourth dan and teaching certificates in both kendo and hapkido. As far as his rank goes? That is between he and his seniors.

My thanks for the clarification.

Daniel

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hi Daniel,

You've posed some good questions, forgive me if I miss something;

If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?

I can't answer this. Our organization doesn't have dues and most of us don't charge a testing fee at any level.

Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?

I can only answer for myself, I would say this is unacceptable generally.

What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth dan simply because you are the head of the organization?

I would suggest this is a case-by-case basis. Are we talking about a guy with a couple of weekends worth of seminars declaring himself a GM with an 8th Dan? Are we talking about someone with 20, 30, 40 years of training/teaching or more that can show rank progression i.e. a 1st Dan, 2nd Dan and up?

What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them bestow rank upon you?

I know someone on this board that is generally well respected in TSD and the KMA community that did something similar to this. It was well received from his peers in various KMA's. I spoke with him directly about it. No one seemed to have an issue within his circle and to be honest, his circle is pretty wide and far reaching with some well respected names.

How about mailing it in? Literally. A video of you doing the required techniques.

Generally a face-to-face is better in my opinion. However, technology is what it is these days and sometimes 'in person' can't be done for a variety of reasons. The KKW allowed up to 3rd Dan without being there in person or even video. As long as the paper work was satisfied and the check was good the promotion went through. So if someone can do whatever is required on video and submit it to someone qualified to review it...well 'was it live or was it Memorex'

 

[puunui]

I notice you have tried to derail a few other threads you didn't agree with someone by making the thread about them, so if you really want to bicker with me, take it to PM so I can ignore you there.

You don't know if I agree or disagree with you or not. And whether GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan is probably more important to other people than to me. I know the answer and I know what Master Whalen would say as well, so you do not need to bother him.

As to the present discussion. There is a story I read in Joe Hyam's book which is worth repeating. A teacher drew two lines in the sand, one shorter than the other. The teacher asked the students, "how do I make the shorter line longer than the longer line?" Students had all sorts of answers, including cutting the longer line into shorter pieces. However no one came up with the answer the teacher was looking for, which was to lengthen the shorter line until it was longer than the other one.

 

[puunui]

Not sure about the comments of disrespecting seniors, or whether the idea that it was done 10 years ago applies to my comments then, but I am Pellegrini's senior in Hapkido, now in Pellegrini-do, yep, he is above us all...

I'm not so sure about that. One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.

Your humility is staggering.

 

[puunui]

Your humility is staggering.

Of course it is ok for him to say that he is GM Pellegrini's senior, right? And I notice you make no comment about that, even when he failed to confirm what you wanted him to confirm. Irrespective of all of that, the truth is the truth, which is, I am his senior, which by the way, he already knew when he wrote his posts.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is that "proper evaluation" in the eyes of the person issuing the rank? Yes? In Gumdo, for example, the Korea Gumdo Assoc. has very defined criteria as I am told for rank progression, and the fees that are to be paid to the association for the rank, I think many of these fees go to the panels time, the certificate, administration stuff, but thats if you actually go and test in front of them I assume.

Just to make it clear, my point was not at all that organizations do not have criteria for a proper evaluation. But, unscrupulous people can jump through hoops to justify what they do as a proper evaluation. Or scrupulous people may feel that they've been evaluating you all along and simply promote you when they feel that you are ready without a test. Is it a proper evaluation? They would say so. Someone who feels that all tests must be ten hours long and leave you with one foot in the grave may not.

Interesting thought, so a fee is relevant if you just go and do a grading? Do your students grade with you or go elsewhere, and do you charge them? I'm not asking prices, just how you see this being put into practice.

I have two private HKD students whom I inherited from another instructor. I do not charge them for geub gradings. The cost of colored belts is inconsequential. When they are ready to test for ildan, they will test with my master, who is IHF by way of Moo Moo Kwan under GM Hee Kwan Lee in Michigan. They will need to pay the organization fee, but I will not ask anything more than that from them.

My primary art is kendo. I teach and I am unaffiliated. I do not charge for gradings period.

Does it matter if someone starts their own ORG. then issues grades out of that ORG. to you? Just wanted your take on that idea.

I think that it depends on the reasons that one has for starting their own organization and why they choose to make themselves eighth or ninth dan. An eighth dan master who breaks away and starts his own org and declares himself ninth dan as the head of that organization I wouldn't raise an eyebrow about. A fourth or fifth dan who does the same thing would raise an eyebrow or two with me. I wouldn't out and out call them a fraud, but ninth dan mathematically would take between thirty five and forty years to reach starting from scratch. Most self promoted ninth dan GM's do not have this amount of time in the art. I think that a lot of those who do this feel that they have to have the lofty rank in order to be taken seriously, particularly if they are not Asian.

Personally, I think that they would do better to simply teach well and run a good school while seeking an avenue for continued learning and advancement. Customers honestly don't know the difference. Just calling yourself master is more than enough for people below your own rank. People above your rank wouldn't be coming to learn from you anyway; they have their own seniors already. So the appelation of 'grand' master is frankly pointless in such a scenario unless you already have the years of experience and depth in the art to justify it.

You study the art that is directly affected by such things. Hapkido is directly affected when this sort of thing happens and everyone says "its just rank, or its just political, or we should all just train more and see each other on the mat" - that's fine, but the fact is that people in the art already might be able to say that, people that are new to Hapkido think such things as 10th dans hold water in this art from organizations that have a training space in Korea that the certificates are issued from...this sort of thing has diluted the entire art!

I don't disagree.

Personally, I think that the very usage of the kyu/dan system, particularly in a non competitive MA, invites this sort of thing.

I would rather see the use of descriptive titles than lofty numerical grades. If you establish your own art, you're the founder. No grades necessary. If you become the head of the art, you are the head of the system. If you are experience enough to teach others how to teach, you are a master. If you are experienced enough to teach, you are a teacher. If you are learning to teach and assist a teacher in the process, you are an assistant teacher. If you run the school and are the highest ranking instructor, you are the headmaster. If you compete and win your division, you a tournament champion. If you show up week in and week out to learn, you are simply a student, senior to some and junior to others.

As far as GMP is concerned, he's established an art that has survived for twenty years and he maintains himself as its head. He got the rank that he wanted (or felt that he needed) and has his CHKD organization. His system seems to make a lot of people happy and seems to have appeal with people who are experienced MA-ists.

Unfortunately, leapfrogging to high grades in a short time sets a bad precedent, and most in the know will judge his system negatively because of this. Those who train in and love the system may not like the criticism, but GMP most likely knew that he would get negative reactions from his peers as a result of such rapid promotion and that his students would be put into the position of having to defend him.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can't answer this. Our organization doesn't have dues and most of us don't charge a testing fee at any level.

Well, you seem to feel that an instructor is entitled to charge for testing. By the way, I'm not saying that he isn't, but once money enters the equation, there needs to be a clear reason as to why so that the student's advancement isn't tied to the money.

I can only answer for myself, I would say this is unacceptable generally.

I agree. Not only unacceptable, but outdated and overly expensive; they have home computers and photo quality printers for that sort of thing now, no third party needed.

I would suggest this is a case-by-case basis. Are we talking about a guy with a couple of weekends worth of seminars declaring himself a GM with an 8th Dan? Are we talking about someone with 20, 30, 40 years of training/teaching or more that can show rank progression i.e. a 1st Dan, 2nd Dan and up?

I agree. See my response to Iron Ox.

I know someone on this board that is generally well respected in TSD and the KMA community that did something similar to this. It was well received from his peers in various KMA's. I spoke with him directly about it. No one seemed to have an issue within his circle and to be honest, his circle is pretty wide and far reaching with some well respected names.

To be clear, I have no problem with this. But the organization needs to take pains to see that it is clear that money was not the deciding factor. Money taints everything.

Generally a face-to-face is better in my opinion. However, technology is what it is these days and sometimes 'in person' can't be done for a variety of reasons. The KKW allowed up to 3rd Dan without being there in person or even video. As long as the paper work was satisfied and the check was good the promotion went through. So if someone can do whatever is required on video and submit it to someone qualified to review it...well 'was it live or was it Memorex'

The KKW comment is not accurate. Fourth dan and higher KKW members may sign dan certificates. They are in essence Kukkiwon representatives.

If a school owner of fourth dan or higher promotes a student, they are vouching that that student meets or exceeds the standards set by the Kukkiwon for the promotion. That representative may promote based on the results of a grading or based on his or her knowledge of the student (I am not certain if the Kukkiwon has a requirement for a unique physical grading or if a simple 'the student is at that level' suffices).

As for whether or not video ranking is in and of itself appropriate, I'd say that it depends on who you ask.

 

[mastercole]

Mr. Dave Schultz, there is no reason to send me private notifications. Anything you have to say, say it here on MT for everyone to read.

 

[Chris Parker]

We heard IronOx's reason why GM Wollmershauser (who in my opinion had some of the best hand techniques I have ever felt) promoted GM Pelligrini. Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons. Here is a quote from Ninjitsu grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei: "I feel that the title of soke, or 'grandmaster' as you usually translate it, was in fact given to me way before my technique had matured. In a similar manner, I sometime do the same thing to my students. Even though a person may not be qualified for a given rank technically, I give them the rank in order to pressure them into growing stronger in the future."

Not to distract from the discussion of John Pellegrini, as I'm not familiar with him, or his history, but I will point out that the usage of Hatsumi's quote isn't really a credibility builder. The ranking "system" (such as it is) that exists in the Bujinkan is essentially non-existant, to the point that it is considered to have no value, and be in no way any indication of skill, knowledge, ability, experience, or anything relevant other than knowing the right people, turning up for a day or more in Japan, and paying the cash. It's at the point where the highest ranking are routinely pulled apart as being terrible, despite them being given the rank by Hatsumi, and him saying that they are great examples publicly. Hatsumi's various justifications and quotes that he has used over the years don't change any of that, as none of them are enforced... for example, if a student is "promoted early to pressure them to be stronger", and they don't grow stronger, typically they are promoted again, and told that they are doing well!

Finally, the entire concept is a rather Asian one, and really shouldn't be applied to Western ideas and cultures, as there is too much of a disconnect there.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I am his senior, which by the way, he already knew when he wrote his posts.

If you knew he was already aware of this....then why post it?

By the way, just how many 9th Dans are in Sin Moo Hapkido? And, out of curiosity, how long have you been training in Sin Moo Hapkido specifically?

Thank you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Well, you seem to feel that an instructor is entitled to charge for testing.

Actually, no. I personally feel that the test should be free. Which is why I have never charged a testing fee. But I acknowledge that many do charge for their time, use of the facility (lights, water etc). Although I don't object to a reasonable charge to cover time and expenses, we all know that greedy excess often prevails in some areas of the arts.

To be clear, I have no problem with this. But the organization needs to take pains to see that it is clear that money was not the deciding factor. Money taints everything.

I agree. In the particular example I mentioned, I believe that no money changed hands and the promotee didn't even know about the promotion until it happened.

The KKW comment is not accurate.

The KKW comment is accurate. The special testings did not require 1-3rd Dan testers to be present. This is according to their own flyer.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Mr. Dave Schultz, there is no reason to send me private notifications. Anything you have to say, say it here on MT for everyone to read.

No problem Al. It was for your benefit, not mine. As I mentioned, 'common sense and fear'. I'm happy that you understood and complied. All my best

 

[iron_ox]

You don't know if I agree or disagree with you or not. And whether GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan is probably more important to other people than to me. I know the answer and I know what Master Whalen would say as well, so you do not need to bother him.

Then why did you ask Mr. Uesugi? You don't sign your name to your posts, so you want to troll here anonymously? What a time waster you are. If you already know all the answers then enlighten us.

 

[iron_ox]

I'm not so sure about that. One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.

And again Mr. Uesugi why does that matter? While there are some heated discussions on this board, this is a place for conversation, not confrontation - if you want that game, I can think of the board we should go to...otherwise, cool your jets.