John Pellegrini

[puunui]

And what 'very good reason' would they have other than being greedy and unethical?

See my Hatsumi Sensei quote. I notice that you are good at asking questions, at least of me, but poor at answering questions, at least mine.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

See my Hatsumi Sensei quote.

Which specifically has nothing to do with the question. No problem, I think that I've found out what I suspected.

As always, nice talking with you.

 

[puunui]

Which specifically has nothing to do with the question.

If you say so. Keep on disrespecting your seniors and your teacher's teacher and I will continue to respect and honor mine.

No problem, I think that I've found out what I suspected.

What I wrote is nothing that I haven't already said before on MT. The bottom line is that it is a difference in values. I would never do the things that you do, and you are unable or unwilling to do the things that I do, which is why we are where we each are. And as long as your are happy with your choices, then it's all good. I know I am happy with my choices.

 

[mastercole]

What truth are you refering to? If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students. If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored? Looking the other way isn't 'truth'. One of Glenn's instructors sold rank. My instructor had an instructor who sold rank. Is not this also 'truth'. A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior. I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth". They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.



So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training? If so, can you demonstrate your proof? And why would you call GMP's offering BS? As has been demonstrated, his art is established, is standing the test of time and has many students who find value as Daniel Sullivan has stated.

I don't know who or what a GMP is.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Keep on disrespecting your seniors and your teacher's teacher and I will continue to respect and honor mine.

You're confusing the issue Glenn, it isn't disrespectful to point out when a senior's actions were motivated by money rather than the betterment of the art. It isnt' disrespectful to take a stand for what you feel is right.

The bottom line is that it is a difference in values.

Yes, it cleary is a difference of values.

I would never do the things that you do, and you are unable or unwilling to do the things that I do, which is why we are where we each are.

Yes, you've made that very clear. I am most definately unable and unwilling to stand by while watching unethical behavior motivated by greed.

I know I am happy with my choices

I know that I am also very happy with my choices.

Peace.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't know who or what a GMP is.

My apologies, I thought you were following the thread. GMP has been used multiple times in this thread as an abbreviation for GM Pellegrini.

 

[puunui]

You're confusing the issue Glenn, it isn't disrespectful to point out when a senior's actions were motivated by money rather than the betterment of the art. It isnt' disrespectful to take a stand for what you feel is right.

I'm not confusing anything. How about your grandfather? Has your father told you anything that he did that you need to take a stand against?

Yes, you've made that very clear. I am most definately unable and unwilling to stand by while watching unethical behavior motivated by greed.

But you don't really know that, because you never took the time to hear both sides of the story. But it's ok, because apparently while you are unable and unwilling to stand by your instructor's instructor, GM LEE Kyo Yoon is able and willing to. I say that because last year he promoted your instructor's instructor to Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan, the first one GM Lee promoted. And apparently he stands by me as well because he sent me a christmas card. Did you get yours? I first met GM Lee ten years ago at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea. We exchanged cards and he sent me an autographed copy of his book, for free, without me asking. I wonder if I would enjoy the same sort of relationship with GM Lee if I did the things that you do towards his first Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan.

Al has an even closer relationship with GM Lee and has actually been to GM Lee's house, and also assisted in the english version of GM Lee's latest book. Master Cole even wrote a letter that is included in the book. So GM Lee stands by him as well.

You rant and rave about all the bad things that your instructor's instructor has done, and yet you include him in your webpage. And here you are, arguing with two people who have better relationships with the founder of your kwan as well as your instructor's instructor, and your instructor's seniors, when we aren't even Han Moo Kwan members. Can you get more ironic than that?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You're confused Glenn. We were discussion your instructor either real or hypothetical, whichever is appropriate.

 

[puunui]

You're confused Glenn.

Am I?

We were discussion your instructor either real or hypothetical, whichever is appropriate.

Were we?

What truth are you refering to? If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students. If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored? Looking the other way isn't 'truth'. . . . My instructor had an instructor who sold rank. Is not this also 'truth'. A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior. I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth". They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.

And here is a question for you Glenn; is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?

I guess you didn't get a christmas card from GM Lee this year. You don't have to answer that.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Were we?

Oh Glenn, now you're really showing your confusion. Here, let me help you out. Take a look at your previous post. The third time you quoted me was a conversation I was having with Al back on page 3 or 4 of this thread. It wasn't addressed towards you at all. The last time you quoted me was a question I posted directly to you. See...I even have your name in the quote. And you responded the very next post with;

I have never done that, but if I had heard that my instructor or senior did so....

So it appears, at least on page 4 that you knew we were talking about your instructor (real or hypothetical). So either your REALLY confused...or your deliberately taking my question to another member and trying to put them with my question to you as some sort of diversion. I'm sure you would never do that though. So I'll just have to assume that you got yourself confused. Which makes all of your comments about Christmas cards and signed books moot. Or were you just looking for an opportunity to make yourself look important by dropping names of people you claim to know? Nope, I can't believe you would stoop to that either which takes us back to you just being confused. And that's okay, it's been a long day for me as well.

So just to sum it up, if you found out your instructor was selling rank based upon ethnic background, religion or gender for quick cash, rather than for skill, experience, training and TIG...you're fine with that. Providing it is a Korean senior? Whereas on the other hand, I have an issue with it. I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

Always a pleasure Glenn. We may not agree but it is always entertaining.

And thank you mods for allow Glenn and I to hash this out between us in this thread. I think it's been productive, educational and enlightening. And though we have been direct, I think it has also remained polite. And thank you Glenn for that and your participation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

So, about that John Pellegrini guy....

 

[puunui]

So it appears, at least on page 4 that you knew we were talking about your instructor (real or hypothetical).

Yes, and we were also talking about your instructor's instructor as well. Remember?

So either your REALLY confused...

No one has ever accused me of being "confused" before, but I guess there is always a first time.

or your deliberately taking my question to another member and trying to put them with my question to you as some sort of diversion. I'm sure you would never do that though. So I'll just have to assume that you got yourself confused. Which makes all of your comments about Christmas cards and signed books moot. Or were you just looking for an opportunity to make yourself look important by dropping names of people you claim to know? Nope, I can't believe you would stoop to that either which takes us back to you just being confused. And that's okay, it's been a long day for me as well.

No actually, I was making a point, which is that you rant and rave about your instructor's instructor, as well as other seniors, but you do not enjoy the type of relationships with seniors that others who do not act the way that you do have. So there is a heavy price that is paid by your type of attitude and behavior, which I am unwilling and unable to pay. I rather have the relationship and assume the best, rather than throw that relationship away and get disconnected from my family.

So just to sum it up, if you found out your instructor was selling rank based upon ethnic background, religion or gender for quick cash, rather than for skill, experience, training and TIG...you're fine with that. Providing it is a Korean senior? Whereas on the other hand, I have an issue with it. I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

Not quite. I would assume that my instructor has a good reason for doing what he is doing, that hopefully in the future I will understand why he did what he did, and won't go publicly disrespecting him about it. When I was a teenager, I felt like my parents did this or that wrong. I didn't say anything publicly to people, only later to realize that my father or parents or grandparents had good reasons for doing what they did. Only later did I understand. Same thing with martial arts students. There comes a point where low ranked black belts think that they know more and can do better than their teachers. Then they strike out on their own and come to understand why their teachers did certain things.

As for seniors, to me race does not matter. I have many non-korean seniors who I look up to and learn from and listen to, famous names, in certain circles. They know who they are and I always publicly recognize them when possible. And the comment that comes from all their mouths is "It is good to be glenn's senior" or "glenn is a great junior". And, I am a great senior as well, sharing freely with my juniors without reservation or hesitation. However, if someone is a bad junior, then they get treated or ignored accordingly.

There are many things happening and will happen in the next eighteen months in taekwondo, things which my seniors have asked me to be involved in, things which will greatly affect taekwondo both nationally and internationally. Some of it is good I believe, and other stuff will be not so good, which we need to hopefully prevent. Al will also be a part of this. In fact, he and I play a very key role on one particularly important aspect of the future, which is good because even though we have diverse backgrounds, and different points of view, we work well together.

One of the important things that needs to be reestablished is the respect that is inherent in taekwondo, and all martial arts really. Ten years ago, some negative people accused our seniors of all kinds of false things, which tore down the USTU, and also the WTF. Then the negative people had a free hand in running things, and they ended up running it into the ground. Now people realize that it was wrong to do what was done, that we don't need that type of teenage adolescent rebellion in taekwondo. Disrespecting seniors was wrong, everyone knows that, but they do not know what to do to make things right.

This discussion between you and I, was from my point of view, for them. They needed to see the difference in values of the immediate past vs. the future. The immediate past was all about disrespecting our seniors, our teachers and our leaders, erasing what they accomplished, and in doing so, bring our national organization onto the brink of bankruptcy and killing all hopes of a viable future for anyone. The future will be about the reasons why we all signed up for taekwondo lessons in the first place, the friendships, the learning, the values, the respect, the sense of family and belonging that permeates all good schools.We had that in the USTU, but didn't know until it was taken away from us, and we need to bring that back.

If people are not interested in that, and instead feel like living in the past, continuing the hate parade, then they should not join. But if they want something different, if they want to be a part of something meaningful again nationally, then they should get ready, because it's coming.

I realize that you are not interested in any of this, and that is ok, because there are a whole lot of other people who are interested and they have been waiting patiently for a long time. Well, the time is soon upon us. Real soon. Stay tuned. We are right at the edge. 2012 and 2013 promise to be a wild ride.

Back on topic: Disrespecting GM Pelligrini or other seniors? That seems so.... ten years ago.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

but you do not enjoy the type of relationships with seniors

Actually, I do have tremendous relationships with people that have been in the arts longer than me, as well as those that have been in the arts shorter than me. Both in and out of my direct lineage. But thank you for your concern. Cheers

So, about that John Pellegrini guy....

Quite right Daniel. I appreciate the time that Glenn and I have had and appreciate those allowing us to indulge a bit. But yes, it is time to get back on track and I see Glenn agrees. So back to the topic. I've already stated my feelings so I'll leave it to others to express their own thoughts on the topic if they wish.

I've been up since O'dark hundred so I'm heading to bed.

 

[MJS]

Wow...this thread is one of those oldies but goodies....seeing that its like 9yrs old. Anyways....I didn't start it with any ill intent, ie: to bash anyone or any art, but instead to talk in somewhat of a civil fashion. As I said, I'm not a student of GM P, but I did, quite a few years ago, attend a seminar, and enjoyed it very much.

IMO, it seems like he hasn't done anything different than alot of other people have done, from other arts, ie: Kenpo, Jeff Speakman and his 5.0 Kenpo. Jeff has made quite a few changes to the way he does his Kenpo, but its still Kenpo.

So, what is it exactly that rubs people the wrong way? His lack of time in traditional Hapkido? Him removing certain things that're found in traditional Hapkido?

 

[mastercole]

Oh Glenn, now you're really showing your confusion. Here, let me help you out. Take a look at your previous post. The third time you quoted me was a conversation I was having with Al back on page 3 or 4 of this thread.

I'm sorry Mr. Schultz, but we were not having a conversation.

 

[mastercole]

But you don't really know that, because you never took the time to hear both sides of the story. But it's ok, because apparently while you are unable and unwilling to stand by your instructor's instructor, GM LEE Kyo Yoon is able and willing to. I say that because last year he promoted your instructor's instructor to Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan, the first one GM Lee promoted. And apparently he stands by me as well because he sent me a christmas card. Did you get yours? I first met GM Lee ten years ago at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea. We exchanged cards and he sent me an autographed copy of his book, for free, without me asking. I wonder if I would enjoy the same sort of relationship with GM Lee if I did the things that you do towards his first Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan.

Al has an even closer relationship with GM Lee and has actually been to GM Lee's house, and also assisted in the english version of GM Lee's latest book. Master Cole even wrote a letter that is included in the book. So GM Lee stands by him as well.

You rant and rave about all the bad things that your instructor's instructor has done, and yet you include him in your webpage. And here you are, arguing with two people who have better relationships with the founder of your kwan as well as your instructor's instructor, and your instructor's seniors, when we aren't even Han Moo Kwan members. Can you get more ironic than that?

GM Kyo Yoon Lee, the founder of Han Moo Kwan told me, in his living room, that some of the relationships between juniors and seniors had been broken. He said the formation of Kukkiwon was his task and dream. When they completed Kukkiwon, he said they waited for the lights to come on but it took some time, as the electrical infrastructure had to go out many kilometers from Seoul into the forest and up on the mountain that Kukkiwon sat upon. They were concerned that the light would not go on. Suddenly the light went on and all the Kwanjang let out a big yell! He said that it was the proudest moment in their Taekwondo lives. Then GM Lee told me that anyone who does not follow Kukkiwon is not following their biggest seniors wishes. He said to follow Kukkiwon is not a direction coming from some second or third generation people, it is coming from him, and all the other Kwan. His last comment on that subject was that if you don't follow Kukkiwon, you don't follow him. Those are the broken relationships, without a lineage.

 

[iron_ox]

I believe Kong Soo Do contacted you to verify whether GM Pelligrini was promoted to 6th Dan by the WHF. I notice there was no response to that.

I am assuming you are referring to an email question...until today, the email address I had posted was about 9 years out of date, do I never got that email. Sorry. But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini? I guess. Did Pellegrini have the time or training in? Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?

Just curious, but do you think GM CHOI Yong Sul "sold" rank as well? Also, how much does GM Lim charge you for promotions? How do you feel about learning Hapkido mainly in a seminar setting? Do you believe that is the way to go?

What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea. He was consistent during his life in ranking people. That seems certain. Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.

This thread is about Pellegrini. Not me. The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business. I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.

I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.

This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.

 

[iron_ox]

So, what is it exactly that rubs people the wrong way? His lack of time in traditional Hapkido? Him removing certain things that're found in traditional Hapkido?

Frankly he never learned enough "traditional" Hapkido to remove anything - the stuff he claims to have removed never existed there in the first place, but he really doesn't know that.

Not sure about the comments of disrespecting seniors, or whether the idea that it was done 10 years ago applies to my comments then, but I am Pellegrini's senior in Hapkido, now in Pellegrini-do, yep, he is above us all...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am assuming you are referring to an email question...until today, the email address I had posted was about 9 years out of date, do I never got that email. Sorry. But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini? I guess. Did Pellegrini have the time or training in? Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?

I generally like to be absolutely certain of that sort of thing before posting it.

What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea. He was consistent during his life in ranking people. That seems certain. Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.

This thread is about Pellegrini. Not me. The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business. I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.

I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.

This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.

I agree.

As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank will not be issued without said payment, then technically, it can be called selling rank. Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank will not be issued without said payment, then technically, it can be called selling rank. Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.

Let's make sure we're clear on this. There is a difference between 'selling rank' and charging for a proper evaluation. An instructor, qualified in the art in question and of sufficient rank to administer the test who in turn actually tests the skills of the individual is entitled to be compensated for the test and time involved IF they want to be compensated. Or, if the instructor is going to promote a higher ranking individual where a physical test is unnecessary or impractical (for a variety of reasons) the instructor can use other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.

Selling rank is quite different. It could involve an 'airport' promotion. Or a back room, under the table or good ole boy promotion for cold hard cash or a cut of the school profits from the new 'master'. Considerations such as skill level, experience, teaching ability, time in grade/arts are not a factor as much as how much money can be made.

We need to be clear as to what is acceptable and what is shady (at least in most people's eyes). Uechi Kanei Sensei promoted people from zero to Godan (5th Dan) in the 50's. However, they had just converted to the Dan/Kyu system. The practitioners that received Godan were Seniors in the art that had studied under Uechi Kanbun Sensei. And it was necessary to fill in the hierarchy of the art. This is acceptable. Examples of what (by most people) is unacceptable abound, unfortunately, in the arts.

The level of skill, or lack of skill from GM P at this point, as has been stated is moot. He has his own art/organization which people have found value in and through. In order to question him would be to question those that promoted him to the various levels. I will say one thing for consideration; it has been brought up that he has weak hands due to injury and cannot perform some techniques and has found ways around that disability. I don't have an issue with that as it would do well for smaller men or women with weaker hands or those that have a similar disability.