John Pellegrini

[Kong Soo Do]

A library is a start. More importantly, miguksaram has a korean wife, so he understands korean culture. He has also built relationships with seniors who can tell him exactly what happened.

Very true Glenn. As long as the information source is unbiased and provides factual data, one can find many different ways to research something of interest. We always need to keep an eye on separating fact from fiction or allowing personal prejudice to interfere with making an informed decision.

Good points, thank you.

 

[puunui]

VAs long as the information source is unbiased and provides factual data, one can find many different ways to research something of interest. We always need to keep an eye on separating fact from fiction or allowing personal prejudice to interfere with making an informed decision.

When it comes to korean martial arts historical research, I don't believe that there are many different ways, at least not many different ways to get to what actually happened. I think that the best way, or the way that has produced the best results for me, has been to seek out those who were actually there, and then get them to tell you directly what happened. Once you are at that point, there is no "making of an informed decision" and there really is no decision to make, because the facts and the truth speak so loudly and fit so perfectly that it literally drowns out all of the other "sources". And at least with respect to kukki taekwondo, all of the pioneers basically state the same thing, from a slightly different perspective. I would invite you to try and contact one of the pioneers and see for yourself. Then you might have a change of heart about "many different ways". You can start with your Kwan Jang, GM LEE Kyo Yoon, who is still alive and quite accessible, IF you approach him in the correct way.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think that is great Glenn, and I'm glad that you have found sources in which you feel comfortable in placing your confidence. As I stated earlier, as long as the source(s) are unbiased and factual then you're all set.

 

[puunui]

I think that is great Glenn, and I'm glad that you have found sources in which you feel comfortable in placing your confidence. As I stated earlier, as long as the source(s) are unbiased and factual then you're all set.

Other than Dakin Burdick, what sources do you rely on when conducting historical research? And how do you determine whether the source in which you feel comfortable with/rely upon/place your confidence in is unbiased and factual?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I looked back at the thread. I don't see anyone taking a jab at any Hapkido seniors???

This thread is but a drop in the bucket with regards to GMP/CHKD threads on this board alone. Take into account threads on other boards, and you are looking at thousands of threads about GMP and CHKD. The thread that you linked is fairly typical of many such threads with regards to the nature of the criticisms.

 

[mastercole]

When it comes to korean martial arts historical research, I don't believe that there are many different ways, at least not many different ways to get to what actually happened. I think that the best way, or the way that has produced the best results for me, has been to seek out those who were actually there, and then get them to tell you directly what happened. Once you are at that point, there is no "making of an informed decision" and there really is no decision to make, because the facts and the truth speak so loudly and fit so perfectly that it literally drowns out all of the other "sources". And at least with respect to kukki taekwondo, all of the pioneers basically state the same thing, from a slightly different perspective. I would invite you to try and contact one of the pioneers and see for yourself. Then you might have a change of heart about "many different ways". You can start with your Kwan Jang, GM LEE Kyo Yoon, who is still alive and quite accessible, IF you approach him in the correct way.

But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth. Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them. So when presented with the truth, and how to get to the truth, it sounds a lot like hell to them, so instead they search out many different ways, or versions to support there BS. Of course, I don't think that anyone here would do that, but these folks do exist.

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." Harry S. Truman

 

[puunui]

But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth. Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them. So when presented with the truth, and how to get to the truth, it sounds a lot like hell to them, so instead they search out many different ways, or versions to support there BS. Of course, I don't think that anyone here would do that, but these folks do exist.

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." Harry S. Truman

A lot of our stuff has been out there for a while now, and it has come to be "generally accepted". But I can remember early on a lot of people were really upset with the seemingly endless facts that we were putting out there, information that we got directly from the pioneers. Those people were really mad, especially the followers of General Choi. And some of them are still mad, licking the wounds which never seem to heal, while they plot their revenge.

Having said that, I would say the vast majority are grateful for the information that we put out there, because it gives them a new perspective on their much beloved martial art, a perspective that refreshes and rejuvenates their desire to continue on their journey. I can't tell you how many people have wrote to me or come up to me to thank me for what we do. They are tired of the bashers who constantly attack and criticize taekwondo. They want to feel good about themselves, their art and their training, and they also want to continue to the upper levels of the path. The biggest fans seem to be, oddly enough, the korean seniors, who always knew that taekwondo was special, but did not have the english words to explain it to their students. The look of respect, admiration and gratitude in their eyes when I see them in person makes all of the BS we have to put up with to get the message out worthwhile.

And the thing that people do not understand is that when it comes down to it, you and I are nothing special. We weren't world champions, nor did we even strive for such things. I know that when I first joined whatever school I joined as a white belt, I was like every other new student, at the bottom of the totem pole, trying to figure it out. Everyone ahead of me was better and more senior, and it seemed like an impossible task to even get close to their skill and knowledge level. If someone had a crystal ball and told me back when I was a white belt that I would be doing the things that I have done, am doing, or will do, I would have told them they were crazy.

Most of those seniors have long since stopped practicing. But we are still here, trying new things, exploring areas previously unknown to us, while attempting to share a small piece of what we have discovered. I've come to accept the fact that no matter what we do, there will always be a small percentage of people who won't like it or us, because we make them feel bad, or small, or stupid, or lazy or whatever else. But I would think that they would feel good, because frankly, if the two of us can get there, then everyone can, including them. We're both nothing special, and if they passed us on the street, they wouldn't even look twice at us.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth.

What truth are you refering to? If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students. If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored? Looking the other way isn't 'truth'. One of Glenn's instructors sold rank. My instructor had an instructor who sold rank. Is not this also 'truth'. A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior. I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth". They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.

Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them.

So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training? If so, can you demonstrate your proof? And why would you call GMP's offering BS? As has been demonstrated, his art is established, is standing the test of time and has many students who find value as Daniel Sullivan has stated.

 

[iron_ox]

Pellegrini again? Really?

What does anyone want to know that I might be able to say I didn't already?

I talked to many of the sources - GM Wollmershauser - face to face, during his last seminar, at my dojang. He confirmed the rank issue. First Dan, provisional, honorary second dan, then the move to Myung Kwang Sik. What I said about Pellegrini not being physically able to do technical material is borne out from them and a host of others that have actually trained with him.

Then the jump from Myung to Seo...all of this in a span of about 10 years. Sure, he has had time to refine the banter in 15 years, but the fact he was given the platform in the first place is scary.

I really have no interest in training in his "art" - as I have said before, I don't believe his training and rank rise to the occasion of Hapkido. If he would call it Pellegrini-do, I would not even comment about him at all - but using the name Hapkido to me is just inappropriate.

I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank, well that's my belief.

My issue is that the material he teaches is neither battle or time tested - I'm glad that people like his approach to whatever it is he does, but his watered down approach to Hapkido has now spawned breakaways who have even less knowledge and now call themselves Grandmaster of their own self styles "Hapkido"...

Without getting into a flame fest, I am happy to answer what I know...and while I do add Google to my search criteria, I have personally met and talked to people about issues with Hapkido - been doing that for 30 years or so.

As for the ego thing...I will add this, I have had very limited dealings with him back in the very very early days of his rise to "fame" - in 1993 - and to say he was cocky and rude would be an understatement. Maybe he's mellowed. At a seminar a few years ago, he used a man who is now a student of mine for a demonstration. He said to him "I am a Grandmaster, I will not hurt you so you don't need to be afraid." My student said after that there was no real way to take the man seriously. Yeah that's hearsay, but funny.

Lineage to me is the same in martial arts as it is in medicine, I would be reticent to visit a "doctor" with a diploma from inside a crackerjacks box, I would want the real training if he called himself an MD, I wish people looked at martial arts lineage the same way - its not just political fodder - it is a first way of demonstrating that someone has a level of knowledge - and sure rank gets sold, but we all need to be vigilant and ensure that a certain standard can be maintained.

 

[puunui]

I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank, well that's my belief.

I believe Kong Soo Do contacted you to verify whether GM Pelligrini was promoted to 6th Dan by the WHF. I notice there was no response to that.

Just curious, but do you think GM CHOI Yong Sul "sold" rank as well? Also, how much does GM Lim charge you for promotions? How do you feel about learning Hapkido mainly in a seminar setting? Do you believe that is the way to go?

 

[puunui]

One of Glenn's instructors sold rank.

That's your interpretation.

My instructor had an instructor who sold rank.

When you have a chance, you really should attempt to build a relationship with your instructor's instructor or for that matter some of your instructor's seniors from that dojang. You might learn some interesting things about your instructor that way. At the very least, you will get to hear both sides of the hearsay story you are retelling.

Is not this also 'truth'.

Actually, no it is not.

So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training?

We heard IronOx's reason why GM Wollmershauser (who in my opinion had some of the best hand techniques I have ever felt) promoted GM Pelligrini. Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons. Here is a quote from Ninjitsu grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei: "I feel that the title of soke, or 'grandmaster' as you usually translate it, was in fact given to me way before my technique had matured. In a similar manner, I sometime do the same thing to my students. Even though a person may not be qualified for a given rank technically, I give them the rank in order to pressure them into growing stronger in the future."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's your interpretation.

What other interpretion is there Glenn? You're simply covering up and/or trying to ignore dishonorable practices from your 'seniors'. I had relayed the story of a Korean GM selling rank (jumping another Korean from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) for money. You stated that your instructor had done the same thing. Promotions based on skill with no regard to a person's ethnic background, religion, gender or social standing is honorable. Promotions based on receiving money under the table from a 'home boy' is dishonorable. What is there to interprete?

Promotion based upon skill & experience = good
Promotion based on a monetary kick back under the table and/or for a slice of the pie when the new 'master' opens a school = bad

When you have a chance, you really should attempt to build a relationship with your instructor's instructor or for that matter some of your instructor's seniors from that dojang.

No thanks, I'll take a pass. Not interested in learning how to cheat people or do good ole boy promotions for cash.

Actually, no it is not.

Actually, yeah, it kinda is.

Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons.

Well, can't argue with you on this one;

I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank

 

[puunui]

You're simply covering up and/or trying to ignore dishonorable practices from your 'seniors'.

I'm not covering up anything. You can talk about it all you want. In fact, I invite you to do so every chance you get. I would think though that if you have a problem with him, then you would speak to him directly about it, instead of speaking about him behind his back, something which you criticized when you felt someone else was doing it.

PS: Remember your question about taking shots at seniors?

I had relayed the story of a Korean GM selling rank (jumping another Korean from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) for money. You stated that your instructor had done the same thing. Promotions based on skill with no regard to a person's ethnic background, religion, gender or social standing is honorable. Promotions based on receiving money under the table from a 'home boy' is dishonorable. What is there to interprete?

Again, you should go call him up and give him a piece of your mind.

Promotion based upon skill & experience = good
Promotion based on a monetary kick back under the table and/or for a slice of the pie when the new 'master' opens a school = bad

How about promoting "students" so they in turn can promote you. Is that good or bad?

No thanks, I'll take a pass. Not interested in learning how to cheat people or do good ole boy promotions for cash.

Thank you for sharing how you feel about your instructor's instructor, who you use as the basis of your organization's Han Moo Kwan history and development, so much so that you use his name on your page.

One last question about good ole boy promotions -- if it is for free, or if you donate the proceeds of that promotion to charity, does that make it ok?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'm not covering up anything.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I can only evaluate based upon the statements that you make.

How about promoting "students" so they in turn can promote you. Is that good or bad?

Got any examples? Specific examples that you have first-hand knowledge about? I'd really like to see you go down this road Glenn, I really would.

One last question about good ole boy promotions -- if it is for free, or if you donate the proceeds of that promotion to charity, does that make it ok?

Got any examples? Again, any specific examples you have first-hand knowledge about? Names, dates of promotions, relationships, training history or lack thereof? And again, I'd really like to see you go down this road.

And here is a question for you Glenn; is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?

Note to the mods; this discussion is direct on all fronts but is also maintaining a respectful tone towards each other. At least that is my perception of the comments and how my comments are intended to be taken. Although the thread is drifting somewhat from the OP, it is an old thead and I don't think the OP would mind. Please allow it to run its course. Thank you.

 

[puunui]

Got any examples?

Just asking in general. Why, do you know someone that does that? If so, what are your thoughts on it?

And here is a question for you Glenn; is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?

I have never done that, but if I had heard that my instructor or senior did so, I would at the very least attempt to find out from the senior or my teacher directly what actually happened and why.

But as I get older, I care less and less about such things. From my experience, the seniors really don't look at or ask about one's piece of paper like how lower ranked students tend to. They are not overly concerned about such things. Rather they evaluate people using noonchi and other methods. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what rank most of my seniors are. I just know they are my seniors, in every sense of the concept, and I act accordingly. Plus I am focused on other things, which makes that sort of stuff even more irrelevant to where I am right now.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have never done that, but if I had heard that my instructor or senior did so, I would at the very least attempt to find out from the senior or my teacher directly what actually happened and why.

And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Here is a question to any who would like to answer:

What are you thoughts regarding people starting new organizations and assigning themselves the rank appropriate to an organizational head?

Or do you feel that they must receive said rank from someone else?

Thank you

 

[puunui]

And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?

I would assume they had a very good reason for doing what they did. I certainly wouldn't disrespect them in public about it. I might start questioning the junior who received the rank, if they began to act in an inappropriate fashion towards me or any other senior. The point is that I choose not to disrespect my seniors or teachers in a public fashion and conversely you think it is ok without even attempting to find out if there is another side to the story. That is pretty much it, in a nutshell. To me, having ill thoughts about one's teachers or seniors is like having ill thoughts about your parents or siblings. Would you post on the internet all the bad things your father said your grandfather did? Not me. I never speak ill about my parents or grandparents, ever.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Here is a question to any who would like to answer:

What are you thoughts regarding people starting new organizations and assigning themselves the rank appropriate to an organizational head?

Or do you feel that they must receive said rank from someone else?

Thank you

Daniel, that is an excellent question. Here's my take;

• There are no universal guidelines on promotions for arts that use the Dan/Kyu/Gup system. In some arts, an individual can earn a BB in one year. In other arts it may take 10 years. In one art there are only two belts (white & black). In others there are 15 the color of the rainbow with stripes in-between. Who is right? Who is wrong? And on what basis do you judge?
• There are no universal guidelines on promotion to BB. In some arts it is the instructor that grades you alone. In other arts it is an organization that grades you. In others, both the instructor and the organization work together. Who is right? Who is wrong? And on what basis do you judge?
• Who gave the founders of their various arts rank? Did they all receive it the same way? Did some receive it differently?
• If someone with training starts their own organization/art then they would be default be the head of that organization/art. If they want to assume the highest rank in that organization/art is it right? Is it wrong? And on what basis do you judge?
• If someone with training starts their own organization/art and keeps their current original rank, who then promotes them if/when it becomes necessary? Do they promote themselves? Is it right? Is it wrong? And on what basis do you judge? If they receive promotion by review of their peers is it right? Is it wrong? And on what basis do you judge?

Bottom line is that there exists no universal standard by which all arts 'must' comply. One can look down on what an individual/organization has done, but they need to follow it up with a rational justification and not 'just cause'.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Originally Posted by Kong Soo Do And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?

I would assume they had a very good reason for doing what they did.

And what 'very good reason' would they have other than being greedy and unethical?