Joe Schilling, Pro Kickboxer/MMA Fighter knocked out bar patron, claims self defense

[drop bear]

A single punch can kill. When the arm was cocked back to show intentions that a punch was about to be thrown; that can be construed as "deadly force".

Shilling met such force with the same type of force, punch for punch; making it more reasonable in court. This should be legal even in Liberal states where it's "Duty to Retreat", as he was already in striking range/immediate danger.

Yeah but you still have to convince a judge while a prosecutor twists everything you say.

It is a screw around you don't need to deal with. Where for example if he had just slapped the guy he probably would have a lot more free time.

 

[Steve]

Dude that got punched talking to (I think) cops and eventually a medic.

A little more context in this article, including a description of the events leading up to it by Schilling.

'I was scared for my life': What we know about Joe Schilling's viral barroom knockout

Ex-Bellator fighter Joe Schilling insists he acted in self-defense, but the alleged victim’s attorney calls the incident “uncalled for.”

mmajunkie.usatoday.com

It also seems like no criminal charges are being filed, though Balboa has filed a lawsuit against Schilling for somewhere around $30k. That seems... interesting to me. Justin Balboa sues Joe Schilling for more than $30,000 following viral bar knockout

 

[jayoliver00]

Yeah but you still have to convince a judge while a prosecutor twists everything you say.

It is a screw around you don't need to deal with. Where for example if he had just slapped the guy he probably would have a lot more free time.

Of course, b/c that's just hindsight.

He's already in deep poop, so that was smart to claim that he was fearing for his life and go from there.

 

[jayoliver00]

Doh, he admitted to......"I boxed for...13 years, man".... case dismissed.

 

[drop bear]

Of course, b/c that's just hindsight.

He's already in deep poop, so that was smart to claim that he was fearing for his life and go from there.

Yeah. That is standard practice. I have a police statement coming up and I will be fearing for my life.

Because that is basically one of two reasons you can act.

 

[jayoliver00]

And the other guy can claim that he was scared because this big guy was coming at him as well.

He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).

 

[drop bear]

He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).

Defensive stance because he was afraid for his life.

It can go both ways

I am a hands up self defensive fighter. I have just been caught too many times to half *** it.

 

[jayoliver00]

Defensive stance because he was afraid for his life.

It can go both ways

I am a hands up self defensive fighter. I have just been caught too many times to half *** it.

who do you mean was taking a defensive stance?

And we all know that both of them were trouble makers, ready to bang. Just formalities for the court.

 

[drop bear]

who do you mean was taking a defensive stance?

And we all know that both of them were trouble makers, ready to bang. Just formalities for the court.

The other guy could argue that as much a Joe could argue he was defending himself.

And yes they both just wanted to fight.

 

[jayoliver00]

The other guy could argue that as much a Joe could argue he was defending himself.

And yes they both just wanted to fight.

I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.

Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".

Hand cocked back = an attack.

So I predict, "case dismissed".

 

[drop bear]

I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.

Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".

Hand cocked back = an attack.

So I predict, "case dismissed".

You can't walk up to someone and cause them fear. That is assult.

Even to have words.

 

[Steve]

I'm just saying that in court, Joe's hands down would show him being less of a threat, as it's perfectly legal to turn around and walk up to someone in a place of social gatherings to have words.

Hands up, ie. a high guard, would indicate, "I want to fight".

Hand cocked back = an attack.

So I predict, "case dismissed".

If Joe is to be believe, there is no case to dismiss. He said no charges were filed.

There is a civil lawsuit.

 

[jayoliver00]

If Joe is to be believe, there is no case to dismiss. He said no charges were filed.

There is a civil lawsuit.

Case dismissed in the civil lawsuit.

 

[jayoliver00]

You can't walk up to someone and cause them fear. That is assult.

Even to have words.

That would be hard to prove in court though, vs. the guy cocking back his arm (which means a punch is probably coming).

 

[Steve]

Case dismissed in the civil lawsuit.

Maybe. Civil cases have a lower burden of proof. OJ Simpson was acquitted for murder in a criminal trial but found guilty for the same crime in a subsequent civil trial.

 

[jayoliver00]

Maybe. Civil cases have a lower burden of proof. OJ Simpson was acquitted for murder in a criminal trial but found guilty for the same crime in a subsequent civil trial.

It's also going to cost him $10-20k in legal fees to defend and win that. Might be worth it for him to offer the guy $5k in cash to drop the case.

 

[Steve]

It's also going to cost him $10-20k in legal fees to defend and win that. Might be worth it for him to offer the guy $5k in cash to drop the case.

Maybe.

 

[punisher73]

He's in a publicly accessible place for social gathering so it's not unusual for someone to approach him. There's no real, legal indication of Schilling staging an attack with his hands both down; when it comes to what's *usually accepted in court. While cocking the hand back like that, is virtually an attack (and not just staging, ie. getting in stance, hands up, etc.).

Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.

Self-Defense is a legal concept (affirmative defense) that says your actions under normal circumstances would be considered criminal, but you had a reason for doing it that would make it ok. The burden of proof is now on the defendant instead of the prosecutor to prove guilt. This is different and must be understood from the start.

So if I was Schilling, I would try to take it to Jury trial and hope for a sympathetic jury (if the facts are on your side, ask for a bench trial, if they aren't ask for a jury trial...advice from many attorneys I've talked with).

If I was the Prosecutor for this case I would point out the following things:

1) Schilling is a trained professional fighter who does this for a living and also had many more options even if he did think he needed to defend himself. There was not an equal amount of force used in the situation, it was excessive.
2) Schilling admitted in his initial statement that he had a problem with the guy and didn't like him, so this was not a random encounter
3) Schilling was not in imminent danger, so the use of force wasn't justified. Schilling chose to engage and put himself into harm's way and created the circumstances in which force was used. Schilling was hoping for a fight and got one. Self-defense is a situation in which one party does not want trouble but is forced to protect him/herself. This incident involved two willing participants to the confrontation. I would link in "officer induced jeopardy" showing that even when LEO's create circumstances in which they are forced to use force due to their own actions, it nullifies whether the actual application of force was justified or not at the time of its application because they created the situation themselves. Exactly as Schilling did, he created a scenario in which he wanted to use force and got it.
4) Since Schilling was a trained professional fighter, he was not in fear of his life. In fact, the circumstances show otherwise. If he was truly in fear for his life, he would have kept walking away and not crowd into the other person's personal space to confront him.
5) I would point out that Schilling's own statement contradicts itself that he was in fear for his life. Schilling said that he was "in fear for his life and needed to defend it against the evil in the world". No where did Schilling say that he was afraid of Balboa.

If I was Schilling's attorney I would point out the following things:

1) Balboa was highly intoxicated and making racial slurs towards people
2) Not on video, but I would claim that Balboa was drawing back a fist and Schilling reacted.
3) They bumped into each other and Balboa yelled "hey". Schilling was just walking back to see what he wanted because it was so loud he couldn't really hear him.
4) If would TRY to bring in testimony that Balboa was a constant problem in the bar (this would probably work in a civil trial, but would not be admissible in a criminal matter because it would prejudice a jury).

Again, it would all come down to how the judge or jury interprets all of this together. And we could debate which set better supports our own ideas of what happened.

 

[jayoliver00]

1) Schilling is a trained professional fighter who does this for a living and also had many more options even if he did think he needed to defend himself. There was not an equal amount of force used in the situation, it was excessive. 3) Schilling was not in imminent danger, so the use of force wasn't justified.

Other guy admitted to the Cops that he had 13 years of Boxing and is well versed in fighting.

Schilling was in imminent danger when that guy's arm was cocked back; that's a punch that was about to be thrown.

It was an equal amount of force as it was a punch for a punch. Excessive would be if Schilling pulled out a gun and shot him or if he started stomping on his head after the 1 punch.

Schilling chose to engage and put himself into harm's way and created the circumstances in which force was used. Schilling was hoping for a fight and got one. Self-defense is a situation in which one party does not want trouble but is forced to protect him/herself.

Walking up to someone in a bar to ask them what time it was or what's their problem, is not illegal. It's social gathering place. While cocking your hand back, is showing intent that you're about to attack. Just like if someone pulled a gun on me, I'm not going to wait for the bullet to be fired before doing something if I had options.

 

[punisher73]

Other guy admitted to the Cops that he had 13 years of Boxing and is well versed in fighting.

Schilling was in imminent danger when that guy's arm was cocked back; that's a punch that was about to be thrown.

It was an equal amount of force as it was a punch for a punch. Excessive would be if Schilling pulled out a gun and shot him or if he started stomping on his head after the 1 punch.




Walking up to someone in a bar to ask them what time it was or what's their problem, is not illegal. It's social gathering place. While cocking your hand back, is showing intent that you're about to attack. Just like if someone pulled a gun on me, I'm not going to wait for the bullet to be fired before doing something if I had options.

Again like I said in my previous post and presented both sides....Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.

I'll ask this question of you and give an honest answer. If someone showed you a video clip of a guy throwing BOTH his arms back behind him at the same time and sticking his head out, based on your experience as a male adult. What would you say he was attempting to do?