What are the chances an attacker is going to try a "submission" technique?

[jobo]

Chokes, yes.

You might expect an arm bar now that MMA is so well known.

Maybe off-topic, but takedowns and basic takedown defense, as well as some basic positional grappling skills, are a must.
I feel that the odds of encountering someone with high school wrestling experience are high enough.

well if high school wrestler are so deadly, why bother with anything else, just learn high school wrestling, but what if you run in to a high school boxer ? better learn that as well what if it's a high school weightlifter ? better pump some iron, then there's high school football players to worry about. there's no take down defence on earth that will stop one of those 300 lb monsters, this is getting complicated !

 

[CB Jones]

in order to be considered a "real fighter".

Does this get you free coffee or something?

 

[dvcochran]

What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique? I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.

Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:

1. A hothead wants to fight, or someone is reacting emotionally and channels that into aggression and violence
2. Someone wants to coerce you into something (whether that is to do something for them, give something to them, or go with them somewhere)

In Situation #1, I can't imagine that someone on an emotionally-charged rampage is going to want to get into a submission hold. They're probably going to want to get in a position where they can just rain blows on you, because they want to feel the impact of their fists on someone else. Or, if they want to do as much damage as possible, they may have a weapon instead.

In Situation #2, I also don't see a submission hold as an incredibly useful technique. Someone who wants you to go somewhere I think is more likely to simply grab you, or else use coercive tactics like brandishing a knife or a gun, or or else disable with something like a taser or a chemical-soaked cloth.

The reason I bring up this question is because a lot of the discussion I see about self defense curriculums is that they aren't tested in the ring. My Taekwondo self defense skills are not put to the test in the Octagon, so therefore those techniques are unrefined. But I'm thinking, I don't need to defend myself in the Octagon against a pro MMA fighter trying to set up an arm-bar. I need to defend myself against some random person on the street who wants me to give him my wallet or wants to throw me down and then punch or kick me while I'm on the ground.

Am I thinking clearly, here? Is the likely defense situation going to be void of MMA grappling moves? How often would those show up by the attacker in a self-defense situation?

I think I follow the trane of thought.
History tells me unless they are truly well trained, "emotionally charge rampage" Can be to your advantage. How do you know this emotionally charged street person knows how to submit in the first place. I think of someone trying to rain blows on you and someone intent on putting you in a submission hold as very different. For sake of argument, lets leave the weapon out of the discussion for now because the responses may have to be so very different.

I stress this a lot. THE most common mistake made by students of MA are when they allow themselves to be forced out of their best position of strength. So many scenarios to dream up but so little time. It is a simple fact that every specific "what if" cannot be dreamed up thus prepared for, nor should a person expect that. You have to practice is such a manner that scenarios are logically grouped together to learn and understand how/what works at the highest % for X similar offenses.
In the scenario where you are genially attacked by a grappler intent on harm or leaving you empty pocketed, upper level thinking ideas like "don't be put on the ground" work. Is it easy? Hell no, especially if you are fringing on out of your element.
Again, if it is truly a SD experience where something bad or very bad is going down, my bigger fear from the grappler is when he has a pal with him. If you submit to the ground where your skills greatly diminish, the grappler at best (hopefully) restrains you while his pal takes your wallet and whatever else they want. And nothing else, (use your imagination).
A psychological manifestation may take place at this point. Fright/flight may take over, or you get pissed and do things that might get you critically hurt or dead, or if the noose is not already too tight, you may find your center and a winning way out.
That said there will most certainly be forms of "compromise" to gain the upper hand. This is entering some very advanced SD skills.

 

[skribs]

Does this get you free coffee or something?

It's the type of verbage I see thrown around, it's not what I agree with.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well if high school wrestler are so deadly, why bother with anything else, just learn high school wrestling, but what if you run in to a high school boxer ? better learn that as well what if it's a high school weightlifter ? better pump some iron, then there's high school football players to worry about. there's no take down defence on earth that will stop one of those 300 lb monsters, this is getting complicated !

Nothing "deadly" in his comment. Wrestling is a pretty common high school sport in the US, which makes it reasonable that a given assailant might have a bit of wrestling experience in their past. Probably more likely than any other MA training, if I had to guess.

 

[jobo]

Nothing "deadly" in his comment. Wrestling is a pretty common high school sport in the US, which makes it reasonable that a given assailant might have a bit of wrestling experience in their past. Probably more likely than any other MA training, if I had to guess.

it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with

 

[Tony Dismukes]

it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with

Not sure about football, but I’ve been informed by one of my old instructors that rugby is definitely a martial art.

 

[jobo]

Not sure about football, but I’ve been informed by one of my old instructors that rugby is definitely a martial art.

yes it most certainly is, id never go out if my way to get in a fight with a rugby player, not even the skinny / short one, though of course I did in my teens, but then I was one of the skinny rugby players in question,

 

[Martial D]

What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique? I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.

Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:

1. A hothead wants to fight, or someone is reacting emotionally and channels that into aggression and violence
2. Someone wants to coerce you into something (whether that is to do something for them, give something to them, or go with them somewhere)

In Situation #1, I can't imagine that someone on an emotionally-charged rampage is going to want to get into a submission hold. They're probably going to want to get in a position where they can just rain blows on you, because they want to feel the impact of their fists on someone else. Or, if they want to do as much damage as possible, they may have a weapon instead.

In Situation #2, I also don't see a submission hold as an incredibly useful technique. Someone who wants you to go somewhere I think is more likely to simply grab you, or else use coercive tactics like brandishing a knife or a gun, or or else disable with something like a taser or a chemical-soaked cloth.

The reason I bring up this question is because a lot of the discussion I see about self defense curriculums is that they aren't tested in the ring. My Taekwondo self defense skills are not put to the test in the Octagon, so therefore those techniques are unrefined. But I'm thinking, I don't need to defend myself in the Octagon against a pro MMA fighter trying to set up an arm-bar. I need to defend myself against some random person on the street who wants me to give him my wallet or wants to throw me down and then punch or kick me while I'm on the ground.

Am I thinking clearly, here? Is the likely defense situation going to be void of MMA grappling moves? How often would those show up by the attacker in a self-defense situation?

The chances are high that;
A) the guys buddy grabs you from behind in a choke or arm torque of some sort

Or

B) you end up on the ground in a similar position.

 

[jobo]

The chances are high that;
A) the guys buddy grabs you from behind in a choke or arm torque of some sort

Or

B) you end up on the ground in a similar position.

I'm not sure how high that is, compared with the chances of them sucker punching you from behind or other variation, but then you've changed the whole nature if the debate, fighting two or more people means you've a very very high chance of loosing, unless they are physically inadequate to somedegree or at least fairly drunk, or your not going to get out of a choke hold, if one is holding you and the other one is punch the **** out if you, not going to happen.

for as much as there can be a strategy for fight multiple attackers, not getting in to any sort of hold or even a grapple is more if a priority for survival, than getting out if them, as soon as you stop moving your in serious trouble

 

[Martial D]

I'm not sure how high that is, compared with the chances of them sucker punching you from behind or other variation, but then you've changed the whole nature if the debate, fighting two or more people means you've a very very high chance of loosing, unless they are physically inadequate to somedegree or at least fairly drunk, or your not going to get out of a choke hold, if one is holding you and the other one is punch the **** out if you, not going to happen.

for as much as there can be a strategy for fight multiple attackers, not getting in to any sort of hold or even a grapple is more if a priority for survival, than getting out if them, as soon as you stop moving your in serious trouble

Best to be prepared for everything really. I've been grabbed or grabbed at from behind in those sorts of situations before. Oddly enough my go to for that is a WC technique rather than a bjj one, but ya.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with

Most self-defense training does include defense against a tackle and slam at some point. A wrestler is likely to have more variety.

 

[jobo]

Most self-defense training does include defense against a tackle and slam at some point. A wrestler is likely to have more variety.

Ok so how does that work against 250 lb athlete ? The only viable defence us to be quick enough to side step them, which on its own is fairky unlikely, unless they start their run up a fair distance aWay, if they don't miss the quarterback they ain't going to miss you

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so how does that work against 250 lb athlete ? The only viable defence us to be quick enough to side step them, which on its own is fairky unlikely, unless they start their run up a fair distance aWay, if they don't miss the quarterback they ain't going to miss you

There are throws that work reasonably well against a tackle, including some sacrifices. Unlike the quarterback, I don’t care if my knee touches the ground. I don’t even care if my back goes down, so long as it’s with me in control and passes them beyond me.

 

[drop bear]

it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with

Good structure and good technique handle a lot of attacks before you need a specific defense.

They are also the best way to counter someone who is stronger than you.

 

[paitingman]

it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with

A good point.
A lot of the success of many fighters these days is just good, hard athletic training.

If you're trying to keep up with that, it's a good idea to also do basic strength and athletic training.

It's also just a good idea to hit the gym in general for everyone who's able.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[jobo]

There are throws that work reasonably well against a tackle, including some sacrifices. Unlike the quarterback, I don’t care if my knee touches the ground. I don’t even care if my back goes down, so long as it’s with me in control and passes them beyond me.

you mean throws you've done against such an individual in the heat of battle, or throws you think might work, but you've never tried,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you mean throws you've done against such an individual in the heat of battle, or throws you think might work, but you've never tried,

Throws I've used on folks who weren't expecting them (including some monsters, by comparison to me), and I've seen used on skilled opponents. That's about as close as I can hope to get until a monster volunteers to tackle me in actual anger.

If you're hoping to find something someone has used repeatedly and reliably against rampaging linebackers, you're going to be out of luck - there's simply not a good sample size to work with on that.

 

[jobo]

Throws I've used on folks who weren't expecting them (including some monsters, by comparison to me), and I've seen used on skilled opponents. That's about as close as I can hope to get until a monster volunteers to tackle me in actual anger.

If you're hoping to find something someone has used repeatedly and reliably against rampaging linebackers, you're going to be out of luck - there's simply not a good sample size to work with on that.

I've got a reasonably large sample from playing rugby, and if an "athlete" exploded at you from a few feet away, they will close that distance quicker than your reaction times, 2/3 10s ( that if you have particularly quick reactions )of a second, if there a bit slower/ further away, and you have just enough time to process their movement, you still cant do much about it.

there a thing called a " hospital ball" were someone passes to you in such a position and there is no other out come than being smashed in to thefloors.

the less they explode, the greater the distance between you, the more your antanticipating, the quicker your reactions, th more chance you have. but if you manage to get your arms in position for a throw, there still likely to just go straight through you, bexause if the energy there explosive movement and considerable mass has given them,,
I've thrown people charging at me, by grabbing their arms and spinning, hurling them of into the undergrowth, which is just a ruby side step with added throw,, but only where they have either a reasonably long run up, or they weren't particularly athletic( preferably both) allowing me to antipate and get in to position with my arms and feet, if they cat h me flat footed, ie in some sort of stance with my weight planted, then it become border line impossible

 

[jobo]

Good structure and good technique handle a lot of attacks before you need a specific defense.

They are also the best way to counter someone who is stronger than you.

well yes and no, sometimes I annoy my instructor by hooting with derision at some of his / statements, and insististing he tries out on me.

one such where he said adopted this " structure" its impossible for someone to push you over, I hooted, he invited me to tr, , he is a pretty big and heavy bloke, so i, " exploded" on him from a metre away and knocked his lead leg off the floor and then pumped with my legs and over he went, " i didn't mean like that" he said " but you can't pick how someone pushes you" i replied, so we agreed " adopt this structure and its quite difficult for some one who weighs less than you to push you over unless they are very strong" was a lot more accurate