Joe Schilling, Pro Kickboxer/MMA Fighter knocked out bar patron, claims self defense

[Flying Crane]

I completely agree with this post but I do understand the face saving mentality or at least one subset of it. I grew up in a violent time and place when there was a major power shift taking place between various gang/organized crime elements in the region. I was lucky enough to be leaving high school just as this was heating up. I was never directly part of that scene but I knew people who were and I went to parties and things that had some or a lot of that element and it was prevalent enough that you were likely to have some exposure unless you were pretty sheltered.

If you let yourself get stepped on in that environment lots of people were going to try to step on you to elevate themselves. If you didn't want to be everyone's (following terms of service) doormat you couldn't let anyone treat you that way or at least not just anyone. This was so common that it became pervasive in a large subset of the culture, criminal or not, and I really feel it is a form of trauma induced mental illness. I learned how to navigate it without having to give out or take regular beat downs and then I got smart enough to move but a lot of people didn't. I've seen people who weren't really bad guys, just trapped in this mentality and unable to escape, destroy their lives over minor or imagined slights because they'd so internalized the fear of being disrespected. Police: "Why'd you hit that guy 36 times with that framing hammer?" - "He was mad doggin' me and I don't take that from no one!"

It's a strange thing and it's hard to shake. Even though I've always thought of myself as a nice guy who had this sort of thing all figured out and knew how to avoid trouble I still had to process through it in my early 20's and learn how to let that sort of thing go. I had a huge culture shock when I relocated to a new city that didn't have these sorts of problems. I remember going out to a club to see a band when I first moved to Seattle and these guys kept bumping into me. The guy who drove us there was off somewhere else, in the toilet or at the bar and I didn't know anyone and they just kept bumping into me and not apologizing or acknowledging their mistake. I had no way to get home and I didn't know anyone and I remember just getting spun up and irrational, thinking man! these guys are testing me and I'm gonna get worked over if I don't do something! I was trying to figure out whether to preemptively just lay into the next guy to bump me or to figure out how to leave and take a bus when I realized that these guys were just drunk and happy and stupid and that the idea of violence was so far from their minds and foreign to them that they had no idea what they were signalling in another culture. It really spun my head and I realized that I'd brought a lot more baggage with me than I'd thought.

Very interesting, and astute observations. I think you might have hit the bull’s eye when you called it a cultural, trauma-induced mental illness. I don’t think it creates a caveate for my previous comment, so much as it illustrates the destructive extreme to which this mentality can be taken. It really shows how we need societal ills to change or whole communities can go down a destructive path. In some ways this is probably a relevant warning to our current situation with a population that is highly polarized politically.

I’m glad you had the insight to recognize it for what it was, and to get out. You could easily have been a casualty.

 

[CB Jones]

Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.

No doubt....that is a battery committed on the drunk guy.

Both are idiots and in a just world. MMA guy would have to let someone knock him cold and just call it even.

 

[drop bear]

I completely agree with this post but I do understand the face saving mentality or at least one subset of it. I grew up in a violent time and place when there was a major power shift taking place between various gang/organized crime elements in the region. I was lucky enough to be leaving high school just as this was heating up. I was never directly part of that scene but I knew people who were and I went to parties and things that had some or a lot of that element and it was prevalent enough that you were likely to have some exposure unless you were pretty sheltered.

If you let yourself get stepped on in that environment lots of people were going to try to step on you to elevate themselves. If you didn't want to be everyone's (following terms of service) doormat you couldn't let anyone treat you that way or at least not just anyone. This was so common that it became pervasive in a large subset of the culture, criminal or not, and I really feel it is a form of trauma induced mental illness. I learned how to navigate it without having to give out or take regular beat downs and then I got smart enough to move but a lot of people didn't. I've seen people who weren't really bad guys, just trapped in this mentality and unable to escape, destroy their lives over minor or imagined slights because they'd so internalized the fear of being disrespected. Police: "Why'd you hit that guy 36 times with that framing hammer?" - "He was mad doggin' me and I don't take that from no one!"

It's a strange thing and it's hard to shake. Even though I've always thought of myself as a nice guy who had this sort of thing all figured out and knew how to avoid trouble I still had to process through it in my early 20's and learn how to let that sort of thing go. I had a huge culture shock when I relocated to a new city that didn't have these sorts of problems. I remember going out to a club to see a band when I first moved to Seattle and these guys kept bumping into me. The guy who drove us there was off somewhere else, in the toilet or at the bar and I didn't know anyone and they just kept bumping into me and not apologizing or acknowledging their mistake. I had no way to get home and I didn't know anyone and I remember just getting spun up and irrational, thinking man! these guys are testing me and I'm gonna get worked over if I don't do something! I was trying to figure out whether to preemptively just lay into the next guy to bump me or to figure out how to leave and take a bus when I realized that these guys were just drunk and happy and stupid and that the idea of violence was so far from their minds and foreign to them that they had no idea what they were signalling in another culture. It really spun my head and I realized that I'd brought a lot more baggage with me than I'd thought.

Yeah. There is a line between protecting yourself and becoming the predator that doesn't strictly adhere to self defence.

So I think Joe shilling was in the wrong. But a similar situation pizza slap guy was justified.

Neither was self defence.

 

[Anarax]

No doubt....that is a battery committed on the drunk guy.

Both are idiots and in a just world. MMA guy would have to let someone knock him cold and just call it even.

Don't worry, Joe has been knocked out before in spectacular fashion

 

[punisher73]

I don't buy his claim that he feared for his life, but I also don't think that you have to fear for your life to defend yourself. The clown acted like he was going to punch, and got decked for it. There is no requirement (that I am aware of) to actually be hit before your defend yourself.

Yes and No, you have to articulate somehow that an assault was imminent to claim self defense, but you are right that the other person doesn't actually have to throw a punch before you can defend yourself. Many states also have some type of language that if it is safe to leave, you must attempt to do so.

Just looking at the clip. They bump each other and instead of just moving on or addressing it in some lesser manner to de-escalate he moves back into the guy's face/space. At this point, there is NO claim to self-defense since you are a willing participant (playing devil's advocate from a prosecution standpoint) by getting into his personal space and not attempting to leave or calm the situation.

He admitted that the guy was causing issues in the establishment, this was a case of him looking for an excuse to pound the guy and he found one. Self-defenese had nothing to do with it and neither did any type of "fear".

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes and No, you have to articulate somehow that an assault was imminent to claim self defense, but you are right that the other person doesn't actually have to throw a punch before you can defend yourself. Many states also have some type of language that if it is safe to leave, you must attempt to do so.

"I thought he was going to hit me, so I hit him back first."
I'm not a lawyer, but that would work for me, and with the flexing the smaller guy was doing I think it's plausible.

 

[chrstnkenpoist]

It is hard to say what the bar patron could have done to cause the MMA guy to 'defend himself', but from what can be seen, it looks a lot more like aggravated assault than self-defense. I'm not a cop or an attorney, that's simply my opinion.

I agree with Mr. Mattocks. Short of the guy threatening him with a knife or pulling at his shirt or waistband as if to pull a gun. I don’t see a self defense claim standing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with Mr. Mattocks. Short of the guy threatening him with a knife or pulling at his shirt or waistband as if to pull a gun. I don’t see a self defense claim standing.

Self defense doesn't take into account if a person is a professional fighter. It just wants to know if you were attacked or thought you were going to be attacked based on another person's actions. Would a resonable person have the same response or assumption that they were about to be attacked.

How would a reasonable person respond to a drunk who does an aggressive move.

 

[John dye]

Joe Schiling video down below. What are your thoughts? Do you think it was justified or not? Schiling claimed he was in fear for his life and acted in self defense.

you can tell who has really been in a fight. Grew up on the street been in barfights or is a alpha just by the comments - Rules of the street don' t f with anyone mind your own buisness. Street is anywhere outside a ring. Not everyone is politicaly correct. Some of us were raised to be fighters and warriors. Watch who you provoke .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

you can tell who has really been in a fight. Grew up on the street been in barfights or is a alpha just by the comments - Rules of the street don' t f with anyone mind your own buisness. Street is anywhere outside a ring. Not everyone is politicaly correct. Some of us were raised to be fighters and warriors. Watch who you provoke .

Alpha? Really??

 

[Steve]

Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?

 

[geezer]

Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?

Yep. I would read it differently. If a small female fighter punched out an obnoxious guy who "flinched" at her, I'd be sharing the video with everybody.

OK, maybe it's a little bit sexist and uncool, but that's my honest response. Besides, women put up with a lot of aggressive crap from guys all the time and most of them have to just put up with it. A little payback doesn't seem out of line to me!

 

[geezer]

Alpha? Really??

Alph-alfa maybe?

 

[Diagen]

This is an ego knockout plain and simple. Smaller guy a goof. Bigger guy mad.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?

Could be. If the drunk guy was bigger, the threat could seem more real. And I think a lot of us would read the threat differentlly if a man were acting that way toward a woman. Men don't typically "monkey dance" with women to show they are tough. It'd take a few more cues changing, too, though. The bumping into and turning back at the guy (again, without the context of whatever came prior) just looks aggressive, no matter who we drop in.

 

[drop bear]

Do you guys think the situation would read differently if the MMA fighter was smaller and/or female?

Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl

A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.

nypost.com

 

[Anarax]

Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl

A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.

nypost.com

"A man can't stand, he can't fight. A man can't breath, he can't fight. A man can't see, he can't fight."

 

[Steve]

Yep. I would read it differently. If a small female fighter punched out an obnoxious guy who "flinched" at her, I'd be sharing the video with everybody.

OK, maybe it's a little bit sexist and uncool, but that's my honest response. Besides, women put up with a lot of aggressive crap from guys all the time and most of them have to just put up with it. A little payback doesn't seem out of line to me!

Me too. That's why I asked. I'm just wondering how much of the analysis on this is subjective, based on the the fact that the MMA guy was bigger.

 

[geezer]

"A man can't stand, he can't fight. A man can't breath, he can't fight. A man can't see, he can't fight."

Hmmm.... Can't stand, can't breath, can't see....

...OK, how about brawling in a dark swimming pool at night, in the deep end. Like violent water polo with the lights out.

Actually, now that I stop to think, been there, done that.

In my defense I was young and drunk, fighting with my big brother. He was winning (no surprise, he was a champion wrestler in high school). So I just went straight to the bottom and grabbed onto these plastic cleaning hoses that were attached to the walls of the pool, and held my breath till he let go to go up for air. Then I swam to the other side got, out and escaped!

He was a great wrestler, but I could hold my breath for a long time back then!

You know, I wasn't such a good wrestler either, and now that I think of it, I used a similar strategy on the mat. If I was underneath and getting gassed, I was really good at working my way off the edge of the mat ....then getting a reset for a second chance. My standups, sit-outs, power-switches and rolls were fast! Don't know if the rules still work that way in the modern world. This was in the late 60's doing what they now call folkstyle. "Freestyle" wasn't even a thing in high school back then.

Anyway, my self defense strategy is still awareness, avoidence, de-escalation ...and finally...when you screw up and get into a "situation" you can't handle (usually through your own ego) ...escape, escape, escape!

 

[Buka]

Texas security guard unleashes martial arts moves in restaurant brawl

A Texas security guard is going viral after being caught on camera unleashing a series of martial arts moves against a man and a woman at a Mexican restaurant in Dallas.

nypost.com

That security person was a female, yes?

And that was nice to watch.