Joe Schilling, Pro Kickboxer/MMA Fighter knocked out bar patron, claims self defense

[jayoliver00]

Again like I said in my previous post and presented both sides....Ultimately, we can go back and forth and play lawyer vs. prosecutor on the facts of the case and how to interpret them.

I presented both sides also, again. Ultimately, I can do it again.

I'll ask this question of you and give an honest answer. If someone showed you a video clip of a guy throwing BOTH his arms back behind him at the same time and sticking his head out, based on your experience as a male adult. What would you say he was attempting to do?

If someone showed you a video clip of a guy cocking his arm back as if to throw a punch, based on your experience as a male adult; what would you say he was attempting to do?

 

[jayoliver00]

Maybe.

Of course it's "maybe", on all of these comments.

 

[Steve]

Of course it's "maybe", on all of these comments.

Not really. I shared some facts and a few if/then statements. Your response to the facts was a lot of speculation.

 

[punisher73]

I presented both sides also, again. Ultimately, I can do it again.



If someone showed you a video clip of a guy cocking his arm back as if to throw a punch, based on your experience as a male adult; what would you say he was attempting to do?

So, no you won't answer the question. Gotcha.

But, to answer your question....wait...let me give a little background. I have worked in LE for over 24 years and have been a use of force instructor (def. tactics, knife, ground fighting) for about 20 years. Part of my job as a supervisor and use of force instructor has been reviewing 100's of videos like this and making actual judgments on appropriate uses of force.

If I saw a video as you described, my judgment would be that the person was attempting and preparing a punch. Again, I have had many years of experience reviewing uses of force that this was the case.

In THIS video, if I was asked the same question, I would not come to the same conclusion. Body language and context support that Balboa was attempting to get a flinch response from Schilling. There was no way that a reasonable person with the level of training that Schilling has would claim that their life was in danger.

 

[jayoliver00]

Not really. I shared some facts and a few if/then statements. Your response to the facts was a lot of speculation.

I shared some facts also and just making arguments against yours; just as your speculating against my facts presented.

 

[jayoliver00]

So, no you won't answer the question. Gotcha.

But, to answer your question....wait...let me give a little background. I have worked in LE for over 24 years and have been a use of force instructor (def. tactics, knife, ground fighting) for about 20 years. Part of my job as a supervisor and use of force instructor has been reviewing 100's of videos like this and making actual judgments on appropriate uses of force.

If I saw a video as you described, my judgment would be that the person was attempting and preparing a punch. Again, I have had many years of experience reviewing uses of force that this was the case.

In THIS video, if I was asked the same question, I would not come to the same conclusion. Body language and context support that Balboa was attempting to get a flinch response from Schilling. There was no way that a reasonable person with the level of training that Schilling has would claim that their life was in danger.

Your level of expertise should be in question then b/c Schilling is not being prosecuted, therefore the DA saw it differently.

And you think that a landed punch can't possibly result in someone dying?

 

[punisher73]

Your level of expertise should be in question then b/c Schilling is not being prosecuted, therefore the DA saw it differently.

And you think that a landed punch can't possibly result in someone dying?

Balboa, at this point, hasn't filed a criminal complaint. Originally Balboa told police that he didn't want to press charges just wanted it documented for a civil case (which has been filed). Later, Balboa said he did want to press charges after watching the video. He was told it was up to him to contact the State AG office to file. I have not seen anything in the news that this has been done yet. If he did file and the charges were denied, I would like to see that.

If this were to happen in our area. BOTH parties would have been charged because both were willing participants (our PA likes to use the term "mutual combat"). That means that Balboa isn't "innocent" for his part, but it also means that Schilling can't claim self-defense. I have never stated that Balboa wasn't partly responsible. I am only stating that what Schilling did wasn't self-defense. Due to both parties actions, I would doubt that they would issue charges IMO. But, it depends on the ruling of why they declined prosecution. 1) What Schilling did was self-defense or 2) It was mutual so both parties are responsible.

You won't comment on the ACTUAL video and statements that would be used as evidence in a case like this. Schilling's actual words, "I turn around, and he flexes on me….bad decisions are made every day. “The busboy and DJ came up to thank me. As you can see from this video, when he flexed on me, I was scared for my life and simply defending myself against the evil in this world.”

Schilling's own statement has nothing to do with Balboa cocking back to punch him. Schilling's own wording implies that they were both doing the "monkey dance" of two macho males and then throws in the phrase "scared for my life" to try and cover his actions.

You keep coming back to hypotheticals like, "what would you think if a guy cocked his arm back to punch you". But, that isn't on the video or in Schilling's statement. You ask if I think that a landed punch can't result in someone dying". Red Herring question that has nothing to do with this particular scenario because it didn't come into play. You're interjecting things into the scenario that would justify the claim of self-defense that just aren't there.

 

[jayoliver00]

Balboa, at this point, hasn't filed a criminal complaint. Originally Balboa told police that he didn't want to press charges just wanted it documented for a civil case (which has been filed). Later, Balboa said he did want to press charges after watching the video. He was told it was up to him to contact the State AG office to file. I have not seen anything in the news that this has been done yet. If he did file and the charges were denied, I would like to see that.

If this were to happen in our area. BOTH parties would have been charged because both were willing participants (our PA likes to use the term "mutual combat"). That means that Balboa isn't "innocent" for his part, but it also means that Schilling can't claim self-defense. I have never stated that Balboa wasn't partly responsible. I am only stating that what Schilling did wasn't self-defense. Due to both parties actions, I would doubt that they would issue charges IMO. But, it depends on the ruling of why they declined prosecution. 1) What Schilling did was self-defense or 2) It was mutual so both parties are responsible.

You won't comment on the ACTUAL video and statements that would be used as evidence in a case like this. Schilling's actual words, "I turn around, and he flexes on me….bad decisions are made every day. “The busboy and DJ came up to thank me. As you can see from this video, when he flexed on me, I was scared for my life and simply defending myself against the evil in this world.”

Schilling's own statement has nothing to do with Balboa cocking back to punch him. Schilling's own wording implies that they were both doing the "monkey dance" of two macho males and then throws in the phrase "scared for my life" to try and cover his actions.

You keep coming back to hypotheticals like, "what would you think if a guy cocked his arm back to punch you". But, that isn't on the video or in Schilling's statement. You ask if I think that a landed punch can't result in someone dying". Red Herring question that has nothing to do with this particular scenario because it didn't come into play. You're interjecting things into the scenario that would justify the claim of self-defense that just aren't there.

"Flexing" can be the same as "cocking his arm back to punch"; in this case, it's clearly the latter.

And how is it a red herring when Schilling claimed that he was "fearing for his life", from that cocked arm that was about to punch him?

 

[punisher73]

"Flexing" can be the same as "cocking his arm back to punch"; in this case, it's clearly the latter.

And how is it a red herring when Schilling claimed that he was "fearing for his life", from that cocked arm that was about to punch him?

I have NEVER heard that "flexing" meant someone was cocking back their arm to punch. I have spoken with many many people in a fight and not once had any of them ever used the term "flexing" to mean anything other than a reference to posturing. All of them were quite clear that the other guy was getting ready to punch them and they struck first.

I even "googled" to see if there was a definition I wasn't aware of for "flexing" and Urban Dictionary even defines that " to flex" essentially has one of two meanings. It can mean to show off, to gloat, or to boast, which is the most popular definition of the word; however, it can also mean to put on a fake front, to fake it, or force it. The second definition is usually used in conjunction with the first — as in, someone who's gloating about something that they've really got no right to gloat about, lying about an accomplishment, or exaggerating the truth.

You asked if a landed punch could result in death. That was the comment about you making a "red herring" argument. Schilling never once articulated anything about Balboa getting ready to punch him. It would have been quite easy for him if he really thought that and really though he was protecting himself. Schilling was looking for an excuse to pop the guy and he did (side note: not a discussion on whether or not Balboa got what he deserved, which I think he did with his background and other stuff). Schilling is a prime example of someone thinking they know what the law is and throwing out the "I was in fear for my life" phrase with no articulable justification on "why".

BUT, let's say I agree with you that Balboa was only drawing one arm back (which is contrary to the body posture of the video). You would STILL need to articulate what you saw prior to your actions to show that they were reasonable. Which Schilling didn't do. Again, we circle back to self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. It means that you admit you broke the law. It means you assaulted someone. But, you have to say exactly why you did so and that by doing so it was reasonable. Then a judge, jury or PA/DA looks at your reason(s) and determines whether it was justified and reasonable or not.

 

[jayoliver00]

I have NEVER heard that "flexing" meant someone was cocking back their arm to punch. I have spoken with many many people in a fight and not once had any of them ever used the term "flexing" to mean anything other than a reference to posturing. All of them were quite clear that the other guy was getting ready to punch them and they struck first.

I even "googled" to see if there was a definition I wasn't aware of for "flexing" and Urban Dictionary even defines that " to flex" essentially has one of two meanings. It can mean to show off, to gloat, or to boast, which is the most popular definition of the word; however, it can also mean to put on a fake front, to fake it, or force it. The second definition is usually used in conjunction with the first — as in, someone who's gloating about something that they've really got no right to gloat about, lying about an accomplishment, or exaggerating the truth.

You asked if a landed punch could result in death. That was the comment about you making a "red herring" argument. Schilling never once articulated anything about Balboa getting ready to punch him. It would have been quite easy for him if he really thought that and really though he was protecting himself. Schilling was looking for an excuse to pop the guy and he did (side note: not a discussion on whether or not Balboa got what he deserved, which I think he did with his background and other stuff). Schilling is a prime example of someone thinking they know what the law is and throwing out the "I was in fear for my life" phrase with no articulable justification on "why".

BUT, let's say I agree with you that Balboa was only drawing one arm back (which is contrary to the body posture of the video). You would STILL need to articulate what you saw prior to your actions to show that they were reasonable. Which Schilling didn't do. Again, we circle back to self-defense is an AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE. It means that you admit you broke the law. It means you assaulted someone. But, you have to say exactly why you did so and that by doing so it was reasonable. Then a judge, jury or PA/DA looks at your reason(s) and determines whether it was justified and reasonable or not.

You never heard of a "feint"?

That's a common technique in any combat sports. It can be nothing or multiple strikes coming immediately after for the KO. You expect Schilling to not take it seriously and risk being the one on the ground?

This was in Fort Lauderdale, Florida; a Stand Your Ground state.

Schilling wasn't even charged with anything, not even Simple Assault (a misdemeanor).

 

[GojuTommy]

About the only way he can claim self defense is if the little dude had threatened him with a deadly force attack.

Good luck proving that though.