Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Dinkydoo]

It is tricky. They work well for one off big shots. I use them for overhand rights some times. But they become low percentage for combinations because your arms won't keep up with theirs and you get over run.

For the SD you may need to karate style block if they have a weapon because a cover may still get you carved up.

Agree.

When I first started trying to use Mantis in free sparring I tried to 'chase' combinations and meet each strike with a block or trap......I got hit a lot!

 

[RTKDCMB]

Boxers break their hands on elbows all the time.

I have bruised my foot a few times on them as well.

 

[TSDTexan]

This is all good stuff, but who do you know that actually trains like that? I'm not doing much TMA these days simply because I couldn't find anything like that. I honestly want to go and train with those guys.

A few actually. And most of them are not taking students.

 

[Dinkydoo]

A few actually. And most of them are not taking students.

Can you give me any examples of the schools that train like this, so i can dig around a bit and see if there is anything related or similar where I am?

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is all good stuff, but who do you know that actually trains like that? I'm not doing much TMA these days simply because I couldn't find anything like that. I honestly want to go and train with those guys.

My school trains stances minus the 6 foot poles. We hold each stance for 10 seconds and then transition to another one. This helps us to build leg strength and makes it easier for use to move and out of stances. You do this exercise until the body can no longer hold the stance. If 10 seconds is too easy then increase it by 10 seconds.
The exercise that I do is starts in horse stance -> bow stance ->cat stance -> cross stance -> then repeat.

You can substitute the tennis ball launcher with a sparring partner. Have your partner throw light to medium speed/force punches and tell him to actually try to hit you with a specific punch or kick so that you can train a specific block. Make sure that he doesn't throw punches in a pattern or rhythm. Have him feint attacks if he sees that you are anticipating patterns. This activity should be done in a low stance.

 

[TSDTexan]

Can you give me any examples of the schools that train like this, so i can dig around a bit and see if there is anything related or similar where I am?

This place was in 2000 / 2001 when I lived in las vegas

United Studios of Self Defense - Henderson, NV

 

[TSDTexan]

Can you give me any examples of the schools that train like this, so i can dig around a bit and see if there is anything related or similar where I am?

Also, Master Yi in the Austin TX area will teach it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is all good stuff, but who do you know that actually trains like that? I'm not doing much TMA these days simply because I couldn't find anything like that. I honestly want to go and train with those guys.

I don't like to build foundation first and develop skill later approach. I like to develop skill first and build foundation later approach. When you build your house, you can spend a lot of money to build a strong foundation. Sometime you may find out that you just run out of money to put your roof on. You will end with a house that has solid foundation but no roof which is not livable. You don't want to train our MA skill this way.

IMO, you should use:

1. partner drill to "develop" skill.
2. sparring/wrestling to "test" skill.
3. weight equipment training to "enhance" skill.
4. form/drill/stance to "polish" skill.

Your priority should be to "develop" your skill 1st and then "polish" it later. The reason that you may want to pick that order because you can only "develop" and "test" your skill when you are still young. When you get older, you will have all the time in the world to "enhance" and "polish" your skill.

You can stay in horse stance all day long when you are 80 years old. You just can't spar/wrestle when your are that old. So try to spend as much time as you can in your sparring/wrestling while you are still young.

 

[TSDTexan]

I don't like to build foundation first and develop skill later approach. I like to develop skill first and build foundation later approach.

IMO, you should use:

1. partner drill to "develop" skill.
2. sparring/wrestling to "test" skill.
3. weight equipment training to "enhance" skill.
4. form/drill/stance to "polish" skill.

Your priority should be to "develop" your skill 1st and then "polish" it later. The reason that you may want to pick that order because you can only "develop" and "test" your skill when you are still young. When you get older, you will have all the time in the world to "enhance" and "polish" your skill.

You can stay in horse stance all day long when you are 80 years old. You just can't spar/wrestle when your are that old. So try to spend as much time as you can in your sparring/wrestling while you are still young.

When you build your house, you can spend a lot of money to build a strong foundation. Sometime you may find out that you just run out of money to put your roof on. You will end with a house that has solid foundation but no roof which is not livable. We don't want to train our MA skill this way.

While you make a great deal of points, there is something else to consider.
On days you have no partner to practice with... those are solo days. One should solo practice every day... Ideally, once upon waking and once before bed both of these can be done in stance training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

On days you have no partner to practice with...

This is why you should choice your girlfriend or wife who also trains MA as well. This way, you will have your training partner 24/7. My wife always tells me that she doesn't fight fair and she fights dirty." She has no problem to smash my body all the way down to the ground.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't like to build foundation first and develop skill later approach.

Sometime you may find out that you just run out of money to put your roof on.

You can't build a roof without a foundation. And if your foundation is weak then the roof will collapse on you.
You can't grow a tree from the top down.

 

[TSDTexan]

You can't build a roof without a foundation. And if your foundation is weak then the roof will collapse on you.
You can't grow a tree from the top down.

Count the cost of building before you start.

Plan the work and work the plan.

 

[TSDTexan]

This is why you should choice your girlfriend or wife who also trains MA as well. This way, you will have your training partner 24/7. My wife always tells me that she doesn't fight fair and she fights dirty." She has no problem to smash my body all the way down to the ground.

Heres a listing I just came up with:
I want an outdoorsy girl!
Let’s go hiking, swimming, fishing, running, sailing, canoeing, camping, mountain climbing, bungee jumping, skydiving, spelunking, deep-sea diving, and so on until we’re so completely exhausted that we don’t even have the energy to have sex. It will help if we both take steroids.
About you...
1. must like long walks on a beach and enjoy a good rear naked choke while watching a beautiful sunset.
2. You refuse to tap or sub. And you refuse to accept taps or subs from your partner. Its an honor thing. Cause your old school classy like that. You have broken other people's arms and you refuse to share your Xrays.
3. No ex-boyfriends or ex-husbands with restraining orders for D.V.
4. Your prison tattoos are better looking than mine.
5. You lost the olympic gold medal in judo to a rival and you have been a bully in the UFC ever since.
6. You are almost sane.
7. You believe me whenever I say "Of course, I am not lying"

About me. I am rich, and I own a mansion and a yacht. I am willing to crash at yours while having mine remodeled.

I have a string of very dangerous ex girlfriends who can break arms and have done time for shanking other ex girlfriends.
I have 13 restraining orders for DV (on them... not me)

I come from a Brazilian family that has made billions suckering people into spending 10-20 years earning a black piece of fabric to wear. When some of the students are allowed to earn it in 4 we say they are gifted and especially talented.

I have six pack abs.

My name is pronounced with an R and not an H.

 

[Buka]

This is why you should choice your girlfriend or wife who also trains MA as well. This way, you will have your training partner 24/7. My wife always tells me that she doesn't fight fair and she fights dirty." She has no problem to smash my body all the way down to the ground.

This is why you should choice your girlfriend or wife who also trains MA as well. This way, you will have your training partner 24/7. My wife always tells me that she doesn't fight fair and she fights dirty." She has no problem to smash my body all the way down to the ground.

I can hear ya. We be lucky, bro.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. For me, all the TMA training I've had seems have been missing something, some element of the puzzle which would really help me improve and develop practical skills:

Lau Gar (okay, technically not TMA) the syllabus wasn't great but I had a fantastic teacher, who's technique was near perfect and he ran his class expecting the same dilligence and effort from his students. Downfall: we were expected to go from linework and one step sparring to free sparring without much coaching, the result, that horrible sparring we've all seen Hanzou post (oh, so many) videos of online.

7 Star Praying Mantis: great system, great teacher, we worked drills, stancework and forms every class. Sparring wasn't using hard contact and without protective gear so it lost an element of realism. Too many forms, many repetitive (50 empty hand).

Wing Chun: same club as the above, lack of proper sparring meant I was missing key elements like timing and strategy. Much of my softer skills (sensitivity...etc) were developed quite nicely though.

Taiji: good teacher, but I was the youngest guy (by far) in the class, and nobody else had any desire to really defend themselves with it. The instructor tried his best to keep me interested by letting me practice applications on him but I was never going to progress very far in that kind of environment.

Once I started sparring twice a week at kickboxing (and then, a third outside of class with friends), my Mantis skills and Wing Chun started to become quite useful, although I still felt that i was missing things by not having an opportunity to go 'balls to the wall' in a class that taught those styles. In the end I got fed up with the endless number of empty hand forms in Mantis and now having moved city, I have the perfect opportunity to start somewhere else.

I don't agree with Joe Rogan at all, but my experiences certainly do nothing to disprove his arguement....maybe if I didn't have such an open mind and respect for TCMA then after my 4 years training, it might be one that I'd agree with. (Btw the kickboxing club definitely had it's flaws too, but that's probably for a different thread)

I try out a JKD club taught by a guy certified by Ted Wong tonight, which I'm really excited about!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions. For me, all the TMA training I've had seems have been missing something, some element of the puzzle which would really help me improve and develop practical skills:

Lau Gar (okay, technically not TMA) the syllabus wasn't great but I had a fantastic teacher, who's technique was near perfect and he ran his class expecting the same dilligence and effort from his students. Downfall: we were expected to go from linework and one step sparring to free sparring without much coaching, the result, that horrible sparring we've all seen Hanzou post (oh, so many) videos of online.

7 Star Praying Mantis: great system, great teacher, we worked drills, stancework and forms every class. Sparring wasn't using hard contact and without protective gear so it lost an element of realism. Too many forms, many repetitive (50 empty hand).

Wing Chun: same club as the above, lack of proper sparring meant I was missing key elements like timing and strategy. Much of my softer skills (sensitivity...etc) were developed quite nicely though.

Taiji: good teacher, but I was the youngest guy (by far) in the class, and nobody else had any desire to really defend themselves with it. The instructor tried his best to keep me interested by letting me practice applications on him but I was never going to progress very far in that kind of environment.

Once I started sparring twice a week at kickboxing (and then, a third outside of class with friends), my Mantis skills and Wing Chun started to become quite useful, although I still felt that i was missing things by not having an opportunity to go 'balls to the wall' in a class that taught those styles. In the end I got fed up with the endless number of empty hand forms in Mantis and now having moved city, I have the perfect opportunity to start somewhere else.

I don't agree with Joe Rogan at all, but my experiences certainly do nothing to disprove his arguement....maybe if I didn't have such an open mind and respect for TCMA then after my 4 years training, it might be one that I'd agree with. (Btw the kickboxing club definitely had it's flaws too, but that's probably for a different thread)

I try out a JKD club taught by a guy certified by Ted Wong tonight, which I'm really excited about!

The thing about kung fu is that you have to do the conditioning and strengthening in order to use it effectively. It's no different from athletes doing weight training (lifting weights) and conditioning that is specific to their sport. Kung Fu has the same requirement of conditioning. Think of the all of the strengthening and conditioning that boxers do, that don't have anything to do with contact sparring.

Kung Fu requires strong grips, conditioned hands and knuckles, this includes fast hand speed and endurance required for grabbing. Conditioned forearms that can take a beating without being damaged, strong legs that have endurance, conditioned shins, stomachs, and cardiovascular endurance, flexibility for certain attacks and defenses. Hand and eye coordination, footwork training, sensing, and other crazy stuff depending on what techniques you want to use. This will still be the case for JKD.

 

[TSDTexan]

The thing about kung fu is that you have to do the conditioning and strengthening in order to use it effectively. It's no different from athletes doing weight training (lifting weights) and conditioning that is specific to their sport. Kung Fu has the same requirement of conditioning. Think of the all of the strengthening and conditioning that boxers do, that don't have anything to do with contact sparring.

Kung Fu requires strong grips, conditioned hands and knuckles, this includes fast hand speed and endurance required for grabbing. Conditioned forearms that can take a beating without being damaged, strong legs that have endurance, conditioned shins, stomachs, and cardiovascular endurance, flexibility for certain attacks and defenses. Hand and eye coordination, footwork training, sensing, and other crazy stuff depending on what techniques you want to use. This will still be the case for JKD.

Very agreed.
But I will shut up and let an old master speak:
While he is from JMA, I absolutely believe this to be a universal constant in any MA.

“People who think they can ignore training their bodies and only work on techniques are amateurs. You cannot do a technique if your body is not developed. Actually, if you don’t prepare your body properly, you have no hope of ever perfecting your technique."

Yukiyoshi Sagawa
佐川 幸義

 

[Dinkydoo]

The thing about kung fu is that you have to do the conditioning and strengthening in order to use it effectively. It's no different from athletes doing weight training (lifting weights) and conditioning that is specific to their sport. Kung Fu has the same requirement of conditioning. Think of the all of the strengthening and conditioning that boxers do, that don't have anything to do with contact sparring.

Kung Fu requires strong grips, conditioned hands and knuckles, this includes fast hand speed and endurance required for grabbing. Conditioned forearms that can take a beating without being damaged, strong legs that have endurance, conditioned shins, stomachs, and cardiovascular endurance, flexibility for certain attacks and defenses. Hand and eye coordination, footwork training, sensing, and other crazy stuff depending on what techniques you want to use. This will still be the case for JKD.

Man, with all due respect, I'm certain that a bit of extra conditioning isn't going to magically fix the issues I have with my kung fu training. I posted up my strength and conditioning routine on another thread a little while back and it is quite thorough. On top of that, the kickboxing classes I did contained an hour of circuits before we even started throwing techniques and sparring, because we were training for competitions....it was tough. The issue with my kung fu is that I couldn't bridge the gap from set drills and one step stuff to free sparring....and after 4 years, with ample effort and time invested on my part, my body is quite well conditioned.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Man, with all due respect, I'm certain that a bit of extra conditioning isn't going to magically fix the issues I have with my kung fu training. I posted up my strength and conditioning routine on another thread a little while back and it is quite thorough. On top of that, the kickboxing classes I did contained an hour of circuits before we even started throwing techniques and sparring, because we were training for competitions....it was tough. The issue with my kung fu is that I couldn't bridge the gap from set drills and one step stuff to free sparring....and after 4 years, with ample effort and time invested on my part, my body is quite well conditioned.

oh ok. I understand now.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?