Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

I don't think it's very constructive to try and draw conclusions about what "most martial arts" do or don't do. Who knows?

This is why I said most and not all. I even stated "That I know of" so I don't see how that is drawing conclusion. I can only comment on what I know. If you can show me 5 martial art schools that don't teach technique, basic kicking, basic punching before teaching how to understand and read a real fight or sparring situation, then I would just gain more knowledge and my comments would reflect that.

Adult beginner classes are often similar you'll see them trying to keep their balance, trying to punch and kick properly, and trying to get the movements of the martial art style before they even start thinking about actually trying to use it in a real fight. Discussion about how to watch the eyes, the body movement, identifying when someone is about to shoot, won't be part of their training until they get better at doing the techniques. I'm actually training a student that knows more kung fu than I do but he hasn't quite learned how to actually use it in a fight. He'll be able to use his kung fu in a real fight situation after he gets a better understanding of the aspects and "secrets" to fighting down. He can read eyes now, but he also has to learn how to read slight body movements and weight shifts. Then he'll have to go back and learn the same things, but how to identify it when the opponent is moving.

pointless debates about one style being better than others would largely go away.

I also don't like debates like this because it's ego driven. No matter how good I think my fighting system is, it's the fighter that determines how effective the fighting system is. Can a boxer beat me up? Sure, I have no doubt of that, especially if I try to out box the boxer. If the boxer has faster hands and more powerful punches than me, then it's possible for the boxer to beat me up. I take all fighters serious even if I don't think their style is effective. For me I'm fighting the fighter and not their style. It's the fighter's skill set that knocks a person out.

I would say that understanding is academic. You can go beyond parroting back what you have been told, and can now explain it

I agree with this when it's the fighting system that I'm training in. The only way I can have a deeper understanding of a different fighting system is if I actually train in it.

Where you talk about application without understanding actually suggests to me the next step, which is analysis... where your technical ability leads to a deeper understanding, which is called synthesis, and then evaluation.

For me all of this would count as part of "understanding," which is why I try to record my sparring sessions. This doesn't just mean understanding my fighting system but understanding it in relation to a different fighting system. I fight against TKD, Boxing, and MMA fighters differently because each has different strength and weaknesses so I have to customize my "Kung Fu plan of attack or defense." based on who I'm fighting and the strengths of their fighting style.

 

[Star Dragon]

I confess that I haven't had the time yet to read this long thread in full. So I will limit myself to a few general remarks.

Most martial arts started out as effective methods for fighting. In many cases, the focus later shifted to sports, health, meditation, that's when some of the more specifically combative elements got dropped. The revised arts then appear to be ineffective. But generally, the combative part can be reintroduced with some effort.

I have personally studied several hard as well as soft styles. Many here may not agree, but I consider Taiji to be an extremely effective self-defence art in particular, even though it is rarely taught as such. That's where having some background in hard styles comes in handy.

Martial arts in general should be thought of as progressive sciences rather than unchangeable doctrines written in golden letters - so they can stay relevant to human demands which are inevitably changing over time. And sometimes, progress requires going back to the roots.

 

[JowGaWolf]

McDojo Te is as real as MickeyD's all beef burger patties.

Whaaat!?!? MickeyD doesn't use all beef burger patties lol. you mean all this time I've been practicing,... err I mean eating them thinking that the burgers were real fighting...I mean real hamburgers. Now I'm mad at all TMA's .. crap.. I mean hamburgers just because of Mickey D's. I wish someone would have told me earlier even though I could have looked it up on my own.

Sorry I couldn't resist the dig.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Because the drawing line shows the arm movement path. To show the body rotation and the footwork, that drawing line should be at a different place.

In the following clip at 0.20, you can see the "body rotation" used in the arm block. You mainly see the body rotation, you don't see much arm movement. IMO, that's what I would like to call "body unification".

Your

- hand coordinates (start to move at the same time, and also stop at the same time) with your foot.
- elbow coordinates with your knee.
- shoulder coordinates with your hip.

In the following clip at 1.03, you can see she moves her arm only without moving her body. Her hand coordinates with "nothing". It's easier to be learned by beginners this way, but it also easier to develop bad habit out of it. I'm strongly dislike this kind of "arm moving only blocking".

I agree with your statements about that second video. It's clear to see that she has no power with that block. She'll eventually damage her elbow when she tries to actually apply it with force or when that block is struck. In the video with the guy you can tell his blocks had power and force even though he wasn't doing it full speed or full force.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Taiji to be an extremely effective self-defence art in particular, even though it is rarely taught as such

I study this as well and it's the most deceptive martial art that I ever experienced. Arm breaks are literally initiated from quick snaps and not from fighting someone who is muscling an arm break. The downside to Taiji is that it's not a fighting system that someone can learn how to quickly use with effectiveness.

 

[drop bear]

There is a difference between finishing off an opponent that you have just taken down with a follow up strike and the ground and pound you see in MMA fights. With ground and pound you are basically raining down blows until either; the ref stops you, your opponent taps; you get tired, your opponent stops fighting back and you declare victory and stop etc. Ground and pound is nothing new, schoolkids have been doing it in schoolyard fights long before the first UFC. probably most martial arts that have a significant amount of striking in them and include takedowns have follow up strikes to the downed opponent but they are not really the same thing, hence the reason why they look different.

There is a more developed version in the ufc.

 

[drop bear]

I also don't like debates like this because it's ego driven. No matter how good I think my fighting system is, it's the fighter that determines how effective the fighting system is. Can a boxer beat me up? Sure, I have no doubt of that, especially if I try to out box the boxer. If the boxer has faster hands and more powerful punches than me, then it's possible for the boxer to beat me up. I take all fighters serious even if I don't think their style is effective. For me I'm fighting the fighter and not their style. It's the fighter's skill set that knocks a person out.

Then why train if the system does not define the fighter?

Just be a good fighter and save yourself the trouble.

 

[Drose427]

Then why train if the system does not define the fighter?

Just be a good fighter and save yourself the trouble.

1. Coaching
2. Consistent access to parters
3. Natural Body Mechanics(some people are more comfortable with some styles way of doing techs than other)

 

[drop bear]

1. Coaching
2. Consistent access to parters
3. Natural Body Mechanics(some people are more comfortable with some styles way of doing techs than other)

Nope apparently all martial arts systems will have the same effect. The variable is the fighter.

 

[TSDTexan]

I confess that I haven't had the time yet to read this long thread in full. So I will limit myself to a few general remarks.

Most martial arts started out as effective methods for fighting. In many cases, the focus later shifted to sports, health, meditation, that's when some of the more specifically combative elements got dropped. The revised arts then appear to be ineffective. But generally, the combative part can be reintroduced with some effort.

I have personally studied several hard as well as soft styles. Many here may not agree, but I consider Taiji to be an extremely effective self-defence art in particular, even though it is rarely taught as such. That's where having some background in hard styles comes in handy.

Martial arts in general should be thought of as progressive sciences rather than unchangeable doctrines written in golden letters - so they can stay relevant to human demands which are inevitably changing over time. And sometimes, progress requires going back to the roots.

One interesting thing about tangsoodo of the MDK... is the upper ranks of Hwang Kee yudansha were taught a 150 step/movement yang style of Taichi Chuan

 

[Drose427]

Nope apparently all martial arts systems will have the same effect. The variable is the fighter.

Well they can have all the same effect

They all strike or grapple

Only so many ways to hurt people

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then why train if the system does not define the fighter?

Just be a good fighter and save yourself the trouble.

Because a good fighter from a fighting system will almost always be better than a good fighter from no fighting system depending on the advantages that the fighting system has over street fighting. I'll use Kimbo Slice as an example: Good Trained fighter vs Good Street fighter.

This fight would have been over a lot sooner if Kimbo was fighting a Muay Thai fighter. It was clear his legs weren't conditioned for the kicks. A Muay Thai fighter would have recognized that from the beginning after a few test leg kicks. This fighter didn't realize this until later in the fight.

A good fighter from a from a fighting system will have tools and skills sets that a person isn't going to learn unless they have trained in that fighting system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Then why train if the system does not define the fighter?

Just be a good fighter and save yourself the trouble.

By the way the fighting system doesn't define the fighter. It only defines the possible tool set that fighter may have.

 

[TSDTexan]

By the way the fighting system doesn't define the fighter. It only defines the possible tool set that fighter may have.

This is absolutely correct.

I call it color palette theory.
But an artist who can work in oil and charcoal and water color has a problem of too many options.

The specialist who works in one media alone has a reduced pallete but has a faster course to mastery.

The tradeoff is that there will be holes in the specialist fighter.

 

[Steve]

Nope apparently all martial arts systems will have the same effect. The variable is the fighter.

I see what you did there.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Don't forget that finishing off your opponent (achieving a knockout) is also a very real possibility with ground and pound.

That is covered by the 'etc'.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because the drawing line shows the arm movement path. To show the body rotation and the footwork, that drawing line should be at a different place.

The drawing line only shows the arm movement path and from the arrow it could also be an uppercut punch. Whether they are just indicating the arm movement because that's all the movement there was, they did not include arrows for the overall direction of movement (was he stepping forwards or backwards?) or the arrows just indicate the relevant motion, you can't tell for sure from just a simple drawing.

I find it weird that they drew a whole person and uniform, including his belt, but for some reason did not bother to give him a face.

 

[ballen0351]

I find it weird that they drew a whole person and uniform, including his belt, but for some reason did not bother to give him a face.

Me too I kept thinking that same thing.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I find it weird that they drew a whole person and uniform, including his belt, but for some reason did not bother to give him a face.

Me too I kept thinking that same thing.

I kicked his face off...

 

[ballen0351]

I kicked his face off...

He must have tried to middle block your face kick

 

[RTKDCMB]

He must have tried to middle block your face kick

Now he's just another faceless karateka.