Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?

For me I thought you were having trouble with your kung fu because the strengthening and conditioning needed to do your techniques weren't there. But from what you recently told me your have the strength and conditioning, it's just the transition from knowing how to do the technique to applying the technique in a free sparring situation.

I have a solution that works with my style but I don't know if it will work the same way with your 7 star praying mantis. I don't mind sharing how I make the technique transition from drill to free sparring.

 

[Dinkydoo]

For me I thought you were having trouble with your kung fu because the strengthening and conditioning needed to do your techniques weren't there. But from what you recently told me your have the strength and conditioning, it's just the transition from knowing how to do the technique to applying the technique in a free sparring situation.

I have a solution that works with my style but I don't know if it will work the same way with your 7 star praying mantis. I don't mind sharing how I make the technique transition from drill to free sparring.

Yes, that's exactly it. To be honest, I'm a bit better at applying my Mantis in free sparring now that I have some fundamental sparring skill gained through kickboxing and now, due to my recent move, I won't be doing much mantis (other than working on what techniques I like from what syllabus I'd been taught) - although I'm still interested in what methods work for you. It 'kind of' fits in with the thread but if you'd rather pm me then I'd be happy with that too - gotta dash for now, first JKD class in 30 mins

 

[Steve]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?

It sounds like there was a disconnect between what you were learning and what you expected to learn.

Clear objectives that are measurable. Clear feedback that directly relates to the objectives. It's how we learn to do literally everything else in our lives, except martial arts. Some martial arts.

 

[TSDTexan]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?

No. And Yes.
It's like class rooms are car design and theory.

But you got to get the car on the track to test and validate your car.

Half of the art is adapting yourself to it
The other half is adapting it to you.

 

[drop bear]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?

Well it is not the style. It is the individual. Or so they say.

Sparring is a different game to drills. Simple as that.

 

[Flying Crane]

Am I picking you guys up wrong or is it being suggested that my kung fu didn't work very well simply because I wasn't working hard enough?

It might be that your expectations about how you are supposed to apply the skills you are developing, don't match with reality. I'd say that is a common misunderstanding, even among many who are "teachers".

I'm not in your class and I'm not there to witness how you train outside of class, so I cannot comment on that. You might be training hard enough, you might not, it's not for me to say.

But if you believe you should be able to apply your techniques in sparring exactly how they are contained in the forms, my experience tells me you are mistaken. I would say this is especially true in sparring, when your partners are probably your classmates, and they are familiar with what you know, and everyone is hyper-alert to what the other guy may attempt, and there is some control to be exercised to avoid injury. These things all work together to fundamentally undermine the literal translation of formal technique from the forms into sparring.

Anyway, I don't believe that is how application comes to life, based on my own experiences anyway. It's not about using stylized techniques. It's more about the application of principles, and the practice of stylized techniques are a vehicle that helps you better understand the principles, even if the actual application is different.

 

[Steve]

No. And Yes.
It's like class rooms are car design and theory.

But you got to get the car on the track to test and validate your car.

Half of the art is adapting yourself to it
The other half is adapting it to you.

Except when you learn to drive a car, you actually get to drive a real car. Even when you're learning to drive, you get to drive an actual car several times... on the street... in traffic. And then you get your license, which indicates that you are proficient. And then you continue to drive more and more until you are, hopefully, at some point, pretty good at it.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I agree. I think the bottom line was that i expected to be able to use my kungfu skills to face off and fight someone...but what I was being taught didn't really lend itself to that. That's the reason why some people think "all TMAs suck" - there's a disconnect between what they're expecting to get out of training and what they're actually doing.

In the end I kind of made it fit by doings bits and pieces elsewhere, but for 'proper' TCMA, I believe I shouldn't have had to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sparring is a different game to drills.

If you create your drills from sparring, your sparring and drills will be the same.

sparring -> drills

For example,

- jab, cross
- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- groin kick, face punch,
- haymaker, reverse head lock,
- separate hands, head lock,
- arm dragging, single leg,
- foot sweep, arm jam, face punch,
- ...

Some of those drills may not exist in your forms, or may not exist in your MA system, but it should not prevent you from creating it yourself.

Your

- cross may come from "boxing".
- roundhouse kick may come from "MT".
- side kick may come from "TKD".
- groin kick may come from "long fist".
- haymaker may come from "CLF".
- head lock may come from "Shuai Chiao".
- arm drag may come from "wrestling".
- foot sweep may come from "praying mantis".
- ...

 

[Dinkydoo]

Also, the principles thing is a good point. I think i had a similar conversation with a poster on here, but on another forum, a while ago when I was first realising that I needed to evaluate what I was doing.

I still don't use many of the flashy mantis techniques in sparring but some of the sweeps are great and sticking principles work well to get inside a guard

Edit: that's not entirely true, I do love a hurricane kick! Totally telegraphed almost every time, but I won't forget the look on my mate's face the first time I caught him with it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Except when you learn to drive a car, you actually get to drive a real car. Even when you're learning to drive, you get to drive an actual car several times... on the street... in traffic. And then you get your license, which indicates that you are proficient. And then you continue to drive more and more until you are, hopefully, at some point, pretty good at it.

My analogy was neant to be taken from an automotive engineering perspective... not a consumer side one.

Regular drivers shouldn't be part of the debug and design process. Otoh.
You don't have to even have a license on a test track.

Eventually you and the car become one.
The car becomes an extension of your will.


The two halves.
First you become the art.

Following:
Memorizing Forms.
Skill acquisition.
Body development and conditioning.
Agility strength flexibility training.
Focus development and concentration.
Ingrained motor cordination or muscle memorization of perfect or idealized segments of movement.
Submitting yourself to the rules.
The how to.

Then the art becomes you.

Leading:
Comprehending the forms. And reflexive application of them.
Skill mastery.
Fine tuning of the body.

Expression of the will.

Adaptive muscle movement and instead of large exaggerated segments of movement (idealized beginning form) your body produces tight smaller and efficient movements based on the underling principles of the form.
Becoming the rules.
The why.

Eventually you become fully integrated art and man.
And the line between each disappears or is transparent.
And the ruler and the rules are forgotten.

He simply Is.

The artist doing is replaced with being.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the end I kind of made it fit by doings bits and pieces elsewhere, but for 'proper' TCMA, I believe I shouldn't have had to.

Could you explain a bit what you mean with this?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, that's exactly it. To be honest, I'm a bit better at applying my Mantis in free sparring now that I have some fundamental sparring skill gained through kickboxing and now, due to my recent move, I won't be doing much mantis (other than working on what techniques I like from what syllabus I'd been taught) - although I'm still interested in what methods work for you. It 'kind of' fits in with the thread but if you'd rather pm me then I'd be happy with that too - gotta dash for now, first JKD class in 30 mins

My sparring class isn't until Thursday so I'll have a video of parts of that class posted around this weekend. I think there's one technique I can show without getting into trouble with my Sifu.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yea, no problem. We did no 'gloves on' free sparring at the Mantis club, so I started sparring with friends from other styles in a hall we rented every week. I then decided that I needed to spar whilst being coached because I was being soundly beaten by guys who had only started 6 months ago....I myself had 2 and a half years under my belt by that point (averaging 10 hours training per week). I joined a kickboxing club and learnt a lot about timing and strategy when sparring that helped me apply some of the mantis I'd trained in....because those fundamentals were missing from my training.

Coincidently I ended up loving kickboxing and have kept it up ever since. Fast forward a year and a half and I won a couple of medals fighting in my first ISKA tournament at the start of the year.

 

[Dinkydoo]

My sparring class isn't until Thursday so I'll have a video of parts of that class posted around this weekend. I think there's one technique I can show without getting into trouble with my Sifu.

Man, that would be awesome but don't go doing anything that will get you into trouble at your club. I'd love to see it though, always happy to get insight into other guys training because it helps me to evaluate my own.

 

[Flying Crane]

Yea, no problem. We did no 'gloves on' free sparring at the Mantis club, so I started sparring with friends from other styles in a hall we rented every week. I then decided that I needed to spar whilst being coached because I was being soundly beaten by guys who had only started 6 months ago....I myself had 2 and a half years under my belt by that point (averaging 10 hours training per week). I joined a kickboxing club and learnt a lot about timing and strategy when sparring that helped me apply some of the mantis I'd trained in....because those fundamentals were missing from my training.

Coincidently I ended up loving kickboxing and have kept it up ever since. Fast forward a year and a half and I won a couple of medals fighting in my first ISKA tournament at the start of the year.

Ok, I actually was hoping to get clarification on what you meant by "for proper TCMA you shouldn't have to". Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Ok, I actually was hoping to get clarification on what you meant by "for proper TCMA you shouldn't have to". Sorry I wasn't clear on that.

No worries.

I meant that the sanda element should be part of your TCMA training. At some point you need to train with unscripted power and aggression aimed towards you....most places put sparring gear on and have sparring matches (tactical and free) in order to achieve this.

 

[Flying Crane]

No worries.

I meant that the sanda element should be part of your TCMA training. At some point you need to train with unscripted power and aggression aimed towards you....most places put sparring gear on and have sparring matches (tactical and free) in order to achieve this.

Gotcha. Thx. I think it's about understanding what the end result is going to be, and not expecting something that looks like a Jackie Chan movie.

 

[Steve]

My analogy was neant to be taken from an automotive engineering perspective... not a consumer side one.

Regular drivers shouldn't be part of the debug and design process. Otoh.
You don't have to even have a license on a test track.

Eventually you and the car become one.
The car becomes an extension of your will.


The two halves.
First you become the art.

Following:
Memorizing Forms.
Skill acquisition.
Body development and conditioning.
Agility strength flexibility training.
Focus development and concentration.
Ingrained motor cordination or muscle memorization of perfect or idealized segments of movement.
Submitting yourself to the rules.
The how to.

Then the art becomes you.

Leading:
Comprehending the forms. And reflexive application of them.
Skill mastery.
Fine tuning of the body.

Expression of the will.

Adaptive muscle movement and instead of large exaggerated segments of movement (idealized beginning form) your body produces tight smaller and efficient movements based on the underling principles of the form.
Becoming the rules.
The why.

Eventually you become fully integrated art and man.
And the line between each disappears or is transparent.
And the ruler and the rules are forgotten.

He simply Is.

The artist doing is replaced with being.

Okay, ignoring the fancy pants, pseudo-philosophical idealism, artists actually execute in their chosen mediums. Painters paint. Sculptors actually sculpt. Writers write. Drivers drive things. Golfers play golf. Using your analogy, the martial arts cars would rarely move beyond concept and never get to the prototype stage, much less into production.

What's the difference between a medical intern and an attending physician? Answer: hours logged working as a doctor.

Martial artists do what? Spar? Compete? Do forms? Do kata? Explore bunkai? Get in shape? Learn respect?

What's the difference between a martial arts beginner and martial arts expert? The answer could be just about anything.

 

[TSDTexan]

Okay, ignoring the fancy pants, pseudo-philosophical idealism, artists actually execute in their chosen mediums. Painters paint. Sculptors actually sculpt. Writers write. Drivers drive things. Golfers play golf. Using your analogy, the martial arts cars would rarely move beyond concept and never get to the prototype stage, much less into production.

What's the difference between a medical intern and an attending physician? Answer: hours logged working as a doctor.

Martial artists do what? Spar? Compete? Do forms? Do kata? Explore bunkai? Get in shape? Learn respect?

What's the difference between a martial arts beginner and martial arts expert? The answer could be just about anything.

One is learning the ropes.
The other expresses himself.