Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

Now he's just another faceless karateka.

"Now, you're just a face (less) in the crowd" -Tom Petty.

Sean Archer: "I want to take his face... off. Eyes, nose, skin, teeth. It's coming off." -Face/Off (1997)

 

[TSDTexan]

Hey Hanzou...
You made an assertion that multiple attackers scenario only happens in the movies....
Are you Sure... that you want to stand by that statement?
You seemed to be disbeliving when I shared part of my one first hand testimony.

Like I said staying in motion.


Here is some experiences of others. While I have a large collection assembled, I am only posting a single sample.
Word has it that this guy is a retired iraqi pro boxer.
There are many videos, on the net, showing real life successes in multiple attacker scenario.

You might look to your Shotokan training for guidance in Multiple Attacker Scenario.

 

[Buka]

It's going to be a long read catching up with this thread.

But the very idea of someone talking smack about another's Martial Art......why, who ever heard of such a thing? Thank goodness we are all above such shenanigans.

 

[Koshiki]

I cannot believe this thread is still alive. Has anything actually been said, aside from the following?

"Poorly trained martial arts are bad."

"Yes. They are."

 

[TSDTexan]

It's going to be a long read catching up with this thread.

But the very idea of someone talking smack about another's Martial Art......why, who ever heard of such a thing? Thank goodness we are all above such shenanigans.

What. ......?
We are?
Ahem. I mean why yes. We certainly are.

 

[TSDTexan]

I cannot believe this thread is still alive. Has anything actually been said, aside from the following?

"Poorly trained martial arts are bad."

"Yes. They are."

Sort of.

I think I heard someone say something to the effect that karate's blocks are probably not effective or practical for combat sports.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Sort of.

I think I heard someone say something to the effect that karate's blocks are probably not effective or practical for combat sports.

I realise you're stirring it a bit here...but what the hell

I've heard that said before too....

In Mantis we had those big outer, inner, downward and upward forearm blocks that you see in some styles of Karate but the theory is, irrespective of how tight, loose or non-existent your guard is, you've trained the block for ages in it's fullest range of motion. So it shouldn't matter whether you've been caught off guard with the hands by your hips, or even stroking the chin, deep in thought - the movement has been committed to muscle memory.

Now, blocks like that against other trained fighters are a different sport altogether. They still work, but they're much more subtle and you're going to need to almost move with it to either get in or out....but it's the same technique, just trained to a higher degree.

Standing in horse riding stance doing the blocks isn't really achieving anything though, beyond being an absolute beginner.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's going to be a long read catching up with this thread.

But the very idea of someone talking smack about another's Martial Art......why, who ever heard of such a thing? Thank goodness we are all above such shenanigans.

Don't bother trying to catch up. We have gone over the same arguments at least twice. I'm sure the same arguments will come up again for a third time.

 

[Koshiki]

I think I heard someone say something to the effect that karate's blocks are probably not effective or practical for combat sports.

Gasp! Surely not! You mean, if a bad guy lunges at me with a punch to the ribs from the left, from too far away to hit, I shouldn't swing my arm all the way to my shoulder, turn my entire body towards him, and then smash my forearm into his as hard as possible?

Crap, well, there go the last fifteen years of practice...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

smash my forearm into his as hard as possible?

A hard block can be used to hurt your opponent's punching arm. To let your opponent's roundhouse kick to hit on your sharp elbow joint can give him a big surprise. Both methods just like to use knife to cut through wood. It fits into the 5 elements strategies "metal against wood".

Boxing doesn't use hard block doesn't mean that "metal against wood" strategy doesn't exist in TMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey Hanzou...
You made an assertion that multiple attackers scenario only happens in the movies....
Are you Sure... that you want to stand by that statement?
You seemed to be disbeliving when I shared part of my one first hand testimony.

Like I said staying in motion.


Here is some experiences of others. While I have a large collection assembled, I am only posting a single sample.
Word has it that this guy is a retired iraqi pro boxer.
There are many videos, on the net, showing real life successes in multiple attacker scenario.

You might look to your Shotokan training for guidance in Multiple Attacker Scenario.

I've seen this

A hard block can be used to hurt your opponent's punching arm. To let your opponent's roundhouse kick to hit on your sharp elbow joint can give him a big surprise. Both methods just like to use knife to cut through wood. It fits into the 5 elements strategies "metal against wood".

Boxing doesn't use hard block doesn't mean that "metal against wood" strategy doesn't exist in TMA.

Boxers break their hands on elbows all the time.

 

[Star Dragon]

Gasp! Surely not! You mean, if a bad guy lunges at me with a punch to the ribs from the left, from too far away to hit, I shouldn't swing my arm all the way to my shoulder, turn my entire body towards him, and then smash my forearm into his as hard as possible?

Crap, well, there go the last fifteen years of practice...

That kind of nonsensical "kata bunkai" by ignorant "masters" is exactly why it's so easy for some people to make fun of TMA. Show them the real meaning of the moves, and they probably won't be laughing any more.

 

[Koshiki]

A hard block can be used to hurt your opponent's punching arm. To let your opponent's roundhouse kick to hit on your sharp elbow joint can give him a big surprise. Both methods just like to use knife to cut through wood. It fits into the 5 elements strategies "metal against wood".

Boxing doesn't use hard block doesn't mean that "metal against wood" strategy doesn't exist in TMA.

100% agreed. I was trying to poke fun at the commonly presumed application of some of the most basic Karate and Taekwondo, where the "block" takes twice as long to complete as the attack.

Big fan of hard blocks though. We just call them strikes in my style. Some of our friends in Five Animal/Monkey Kung Fu call it Stone Monkey, I believe.

 

[TSDTexan]

100% agreed. I was trying to poke fun at the commonly presumed application of some of the most basic Karate and Taekwondo, where the "block" takes twice as long to complete as the attack.

Big fan of hard blocks though. We just call them strikes in my style. Some of our friends in Five Animal/Monkey Kung Fu call it Stone Monkey, I believe.

In old Karate... they are deflections, parries, shoves, or trapping and rarely are they "just" hard blocks or even hard blocks at all.

I remember 20 something years ago when I had the epiphany my block was actually an offensive strike, and could be used on things other than "stopping an incoming strike".

I started thinking about the practice in europe of "shield-bashing". I started trying to figure out what kind of targets on the human body would be ideal for being clubbed by a forearm. The throat and spine are quite lovely.
As are targets such as the back of an elbow, the boney orbit of the eyesocket by the temple, and the nose.

The hammer fist does more damage but a relaxed arm swings faster... and soft tissue targets don't have to be struck with a fist to deal significant trauma.

However there are quite a few blocks that are so poor a strike as to make it clear they are NOT a strike becomes self evident.

 

[TSDTexan]

I realise you're stirring it a bit here...but what the hell

Standing in horse riding stance doing the blocks isn't really achieving anything though, beyond being an absolute beginner.

You realize a 10 hour shift on a day spent in deep horse stance is brutally effective in body conditioning for the leg and spine.

Add in continuous full speed, full power blocks (for the whole ten hours) or slow speed dynamic tensioned blocks and you have just started some serious cardio and endurance.

Add in a partner kicking and punching your body, if you fail to block and you have reaction time / speed training and medicine ball body conditioning.

There is a reason why the shaolin did deep horse stance training from day one. Heck... just a horse stance is a full on gym.

Add some kettle ball arm "lift and holds".

Or stone bracelet punching....erm..."blocking"

Or the stone hammer body conditioning...
Or a deep horse stance on the top ends of two wooden poles or stone columns up 6 or more feet in the air.

With a guy running a tennis ball launcher. Or a guy pitching iron pellet bean bags. Better make them blocks and weaves.

This is stuff that can challenge a master.
I think it achieves a lot more than you realize for anyone on their journey.

 

[drop bear]

I realise you're stirring it a bit here...but what the hell

I've heard that said before too....

In Mantis we had those big outer, inner, downward and upward forearm blocks that you see in some styles of Karate but the theory is, irrespective of how tight, loose or non-existent your guard is, you've trained the block for ages in it's fullest range of motion. So it shouldn't matter whether you've been caught off guard with the hands by your hips, or even stroking the chin, deep in thought - the movement has been committed to muscle memory.

Now, blocks like that against other trained fighters are a different sport altogether. They still work, but they're much more subtle and you're going to need to almost move with it to either get in or out....but it's the same technique, just trained to a higher degree.

Standing in horse riding stance doing the blocks isn't really achieving anything though, beyond being an absolute beginner.

It is tricky. They work well for one off big shots. I use them for overhand rights some times. But they become low percentage for combinations because your arms won't keep up with theirs and you get over run.

For the SD you may need to karate style block if they have a weapon because a cover may still get you carved up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

spent in deep horse stance ... Add in continuous full speed, full power blocks

It's better to repeat your hip throw (or shoulder throw) solo drill 300 times non-stop than to stay in horse stance for 30 minutes. You will get everything that you can get from your 30 minutes horse stance training but much more.

It's better to develop your "body unification" from day one. It may be harder for any beginner to do. But why do you want to go through the wrong way and then chance it back to the right way several years later?

Some beginners may do the following:

1. step in,
2. downward block.

You move your leg first. After your leg finish the move and stop, you then move your arm.

Why don't you do:

1. step in and downward block at the same time?

The moment that you start to move your leg, the moment that you start to move your arm. The moment that your leg stop, the moment that your arm stop at the same time.

The following 2 clips have good "body unification - hand and foot start and stop at the same time".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For the SD you may need to karate style block if they have a weapon because a cover may still get you carved up.

In the praying mantis system, you run toward your opponent with 2 upward blocks (one after another) to raise both of his arms and expose his belly for your punch.

In the XingYi system, the upward blocking is like to raise a curtain, you then move in under it.

In both cases, footwork is integrated with your upward blocking.

 

[drop bear]

In the praying mantis system, you run toward your opponent with 2 upward blocks (one after another) to raise both of his arms and expose his belly for your punch.

In the XingYi system, the upward blocking is like to raise a curtain, you then move in under it.

In both cases, footwork is integrated with your upward blocking.

But I assume can be negated by their footwork.

 

[Dinkydoo]

You realize a 10 hour shift on a day spent in deep horse stance is brutally effective in body conditioning for the leg and spine.

Add in continuous full speed, full power blocks (for the whole ten hours) or slow speed dynamic tensioned blocks and you have just started some serious cardio and endurance.

Add in a partner kicking and punching your body, if you fail to block and you have reaction time / speed training and medicine ball body conditioning.

There is a reason why the shaolin did deep horse stance training from day one. Heck... just a horse stance is a full on gym.

Add some kettle ball arm "lift and holds".

Or stone bracelet punching....erm..."blocking"

Or the stone hammer body conditioning...
Or a deep horse stance on the top ends of two wooden poles or stone columns up 6 or more feet in the air.

With a guy running a tennis ball launcher. Or a guy pitching iron pellet bean bags. Better make them blocks and weaves.

This is stuff that can challenge a master.
I think it achieves a lot more than you realize for anyone on their journey.

This is all good stuff, but who do you know that actually trains like that? I'm not doing much TMA these days simply because I couldn't find anything like that. I honestly want to go and train with those guys.