Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Steve]

One is learning the ropes.
The other expresses himself.

Of course. The ropes. And the other is expressing himself. In understand that's illegal in some states.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

If you create your drills from sparring, your sparring and drills will be the same.

sparring -> drills

For example,

- jab, cross
- roundhouse kick, side kick,
- groin kick, face punch,
- haymaker, reverse head lock,
- separate hands, head lock,
- arm dragging, single leg,
- foot sweep, arm jam, face punch,
- ...

Some of those drills may not exist in your forms, or may not exist in your MA system, but it should not prevent you from creating it yourself.

Your

- cross may come from "boxing".
- roundhouse kick may come from "MT".
- side kick may come from "TKD".
- groin kick may come from "long fist".
- haymaker may come from "CLF".
- head lock may come from "Shuai Chiao".
- arm drag may come from "wrestling".
- foot sweep may come from "praying mantis".
- ...

We get people who constantly struggle to make the transition from the pads to live sparring. Same thing happens if you spar someone good.you struggle to implement what you have trained.

 

[drop bear]

Yea, no problem. We did no 'gloves on' free sparring at the Mantis club, so I started sparring with friends from other styles in a hall we rented every week. I then decided that I needed to spar whilst being coached because I was being soundly beaten by guys who had only started 6 months ago....I myself had 2 and a half years under my belt by that point (averaging 10 hours training per week). I joined a kickboxing club and learnt a lot about timing and strategy when sparring that helped me apply some of the mantis I'd trained in....because those fundamentals were missing from my training.

Coincidently I ended up loving kickboxing and have kept it up ever since. Fast forward a year and a half and I won a couple of medals fighting in my first ISKA tournament at the start of the year.

There are just a lot of basic fighting fundamentals you just won't pick up unless you do a kicboxing or similar. Not even the stylistic differences. Quite often there are no outlets for fighters in a lot of styles. I mean if say for example you wanted to be an akido kill monster. Who do you fight? Where as wrestling you could fight quality guys all the time.

 

[Dinkydoo]

There are just a lot of basic fighting fundamentals you just won't pick up unless you do a kicboxing or similar. Not even the stylistic differences. Quite often there are no outlets for fighters in a lot of styles. I mean if say for example you wanted to be an akido kill monster. Who do you fight? Where as wrestling you could fight quality guys all the time.

I think this depends on the attitude of the people you train with too; naturally, competitive arts are going to attract more people who want to really push themselves and test their skills in the ring - therefore the training is all geared towards making sure this stuff works when facing off against someone. I've watched quite a few episodes of Kung Fu Quest and generally, the guys who are profiled on it are really serious about using their art to fight - unfortunately for me, I don't live in China (and probably never will). If we bring the context back to the UK then there is really only one Kung Fu club that i've seen who train their guys the way i want to train, a Chow Gar club that is around a 6 hour round trip for me now....yet within a half hour walk from my flat, I can be training with pro Muay Thai and MMA fighters.

 

[DAVID LEE SPRINGER]

hello everyone--i see there is a few of my gung-fu brothers on here---greatings from california(david springer 20 years -shori-go ju-ryu/15 years 7 star northern mantis 15 years chi-na)

 

[TSDTexan]

hello everyone--i see there is a few of my gung-fu brothers on here---greatings from california(david springer 20 years -shori-go ju-ryu/15 years 7 star northern mantis 15 years chi-na)

Welcome to Martial Talk, David

 

[TSDTexan]

Welcome to Martial Talk, David

Gojo... heavy breathing! Great branch of Karate.
How much hojo undo did you do in that 20 years of Gojo?
Sanchin stepping with heavy nigiri game is boss!

 

[ShotoNoob]

Unless someone's face is located in the middle of their body and not on their head I don't see why anyone would use a middle block to use against someone jabbing them in the face.

\
I'm glad you spoke up.
\
The traditional karate blocking concepts re principles are taught immediately in the traditional curriculum... The happenstance that the unknowing / all-knowing go out & rigidly paste these kihon training structures onto actual application absent the principles.... then no the standard middle block doesn't work readily against jabs to the faCE.
\
The latter should ask Joe R over to dinner.... you'all have a lot to commiserate about.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Exactly...
It would be an upper block... and I know of no one who uses a middle block to do an upper block.
View attachment 19511

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No, it's more representative to say that most karateka don't know how to actually apply these standard karate blocks @ All.
\
WAIT: OMGawrsh, we are finally getting the karate manual out... I'm in shock & awe....
\
But then again, the conventional full contact mentality says these karate blocks don't work.... It's hands up boys.... High defense, middle defense, low defense.... that's as outdated as RTKDCMB's board breaking demo's....they say.

 

[ShotoNoob]

OMGarsh.... I'm missed this....

It can be done high enough to block the face.

\
om 2xgAWRSH..... TWO posters are correct @ the same time..!!! Gee I (me) learned @ white-yellow belt at my current school there's Kihon training form & there is Kumite application form. Will the twain ever shall meet????

 

[ShotoNoob]

In traditional Bjj, the ground and pound is part of the submission process. Typically, you use it to force your opponent to make a mistake and lower their defenses so that you can more easily submit them.

Example;

\
RTKDCMB or someone, flying crane?, asked me to post my video demo. which I didn't post.
\
Well here is a "karate" demo vid of how I DON'T TRAIN OR FIGHT. Never encountered traditional karate training @ numerous TMA schools in my area advocating walking around aimlessly with no guard; them madly rushing standing upright smack dab into the opponent with my hands @ my sides.... a Gracie grappler no less...
\
No, the kihon middle block (or punch) doesn't work 'cause the karateka in this video doesn't know application of either....

 

[Hanzou]

Back on topic;

 

[JowGaWolf]

\
RTKDCMB or someone, flying crane?, asked me to post my video demo. which I didn't post.
\
Well here is a "karate" demo vid of how I DON'T TRAIN OR FIGHT. Never encountered traditional karate training @ numerous TMA schools in my area advocating walking around aimlessly with no guard; them madly rushing standing upright smack dab into the opponent with my hands @ my sides.... a Gracie grappler no less...
\
No, the kihon middle block (or punch) doesn't work 'cause the karateka in this video doesn't know application of either....

That guy is basically stuck in demo mode for which approaches like that are common. If this is the case then that guy doesn't have the basic experience to be sparring let alone going against another fighting style. This is basically what he had playing in his mind of how real fighting is. lol

It actually makes bjj look less impressive because he's not going against a skilled karate fighter. He's just going against a skilled with demo forms.

 

[Hanzou]

That guy is basically stuck in demo mode for which approaches like that are common. If this is the case then that guy doesn't have the basic experience to be sparring let alone going against another fighting style. This is basically what he had playing in his mind of how real fighting is. lol

It actually makes bjj look less impressive because he's not going against a skilled karate fighter. He's just going against a skilled with demo forms.

Interesting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Back on topic;

 

[JowGaWolf]

Back on topic;

It's interesting how debates and comments are about TMAs vs MMA are never really compare the arts as a whole. Debates usually always focus on grappling and striking as if that is all within a fighting system. Weapons never come up. Historical context never comes up and McDojos are never distinguished from the real fighting systems.

I do kung fu. If I went against a professional MMA fighter playing by MMA rules then there's a high chance that I'll lose. Here we are both limited to the same rules
If I went against the same MMA fighter on concrete then I feel better about my chances of winning, simply because sweeps done on concrete not only hurt an opponent but has the risk of breaking bone when hitting the ground. Here we are both limited by the same rules and dangers of the concrete
If I used a wax wood staff and gave that same MMA fighter a wax wood staff then there's a high chance that I'll win. Here we are both limited to the same rules and same weapons.

It's just a shame that people like Joe take a part of a fighting system and then make assumptions about the whole of that fighting system and then throw other TMAs into the same boat. An Aikido practitioner with a bokken would beat an MMA practicioner with a bokken but we don't hear Joe ragging MMA out about that. What is really sad is that there are a lot of MMA fighters probably don't hold the same opinions that Joe has. Many of them are more than happy to take various techniques from TMA's so long as that technique helps them to win.

The good thing about Joe is that while he's a "dead horse" topic there has been some really informative stuff that has come out that has nothing to do with Joe at all.

 

[drop bear]

It's interesting how debates and comments are about TMAs vs MMA are never really compare the arts as a whole. Debates usually always focus on grappling and striking as if that is all within a fighting system. Weapons never come up. Historical context never comes up and McDojos are never distinguished from the real fighting systems.

I do kung fu. If I went against a professional MMA fighter playing by MMA rules then there's a high chance that I'll lose. Here we are both limited to the same rules
If I went against the same MMA fighter on concrete then I feel better about my chances of winning, simply because sweeps done on concrete not only hurt an opponent but has the risk of breaking bone when hitting the ground. Here we are both limited by the same rules and dangers of the concrete
If I used a wax wood staff and gave that same MMA fighter a wax wood staff then there's a high chance that I'll win. Here we are both limited to the same rules and same weapons.

It's just a shame that people like Joe take a part of a fighting system and then make assumptions about the whole of that fighting system and then throw other TMAs into the same boat. An Aikido practitioner with a bokken would beat an MMA practicioner with a bokken but we don't hear Joe ragging MMA out about that. What is really sad is that there are a lot of MMA fighters probably don't hold the same opinions that Joe has. Many of them are more than happy to take various techniques from TMA's so long as that technique helps them to win.

The good thing about Joe is that while he's a "dead horse" topic there has been some really informative stuff that has come out that has nothing to do with Joe at all.

Sort of. There is what is called drinking the cool aid. And that is the idea that your technique works even though you have never fought anybody good. So if your staff training is mostly forms and bunkai. You will probably get bashed by a hema or dog brothers guy who is doing contact sparring.

It is this fairly consistent method as to what turns out good fighters.

 

[Hanzou]

It's just a shame that people like Joe take a part of a fighting system and then make assumptions about the whole of that fighting system and then throw other TMAs into the same boat. An Aikido practitioner with a bokken would beat an MMA practicioner with a bokken but we don't hear Joe ragging MMA out about that. What is really sad is that there are a lot of MMA fighters probably don't hold the same opinions that Joe has. Many of them are more than happy to take various techniques from TMA's so long as that technique helps them to win.

The good thing about Joe is that while he's a "dead horse" topic there has been some really informative stuff that has come out that has nothing to do with Joe at all.

I don't believe its a shame at all. Joe made a lot of excellent points in that video. The guy he was talking to was clearly delusional and literally making up complete BS throughout the entire exchange.

 

[Flying Crane]

\
RTKDCMB or someone, flying crane?, asked me to post my video demo. which I didn't post.
\
Well here is a "karate" demo vid of how I DON'T TRAIN OR FIGHT. Never encountered traditional karate training @ numerous TMA schools in my area advocating walking around aimlessly with no guard; them madly rushing standing upright smack dab into the opponent with my hands @ my sides.... a Gracie grappler no less...
\
No, the kihon middle block (or punch) doesn't work 'cause the karateka in this video doesn't know application of either....

Wasn't me. I simply asked you to explain a comment you made. You have not done so.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't believe its a shame at all. Joe made a lot of excellent points in that video. The guy he was talking to was clearly delusional and literally making up complete BS throughout the entire exchange.

This is Aikido as well. Do the "excellent points" go for these practitioners as well. Are these practitioners just willingly being tossed around? Does it look like the techniques are fake? Do those same "excellent points" apply to these men and women?