Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[ShotoNoob]

Here's a Shotokan kumite vid that portrays both sides of the issue....

Proponents & detractors, karate fans and non-fans, feel free to chime in....

 

[JowGaWolf]

The competent TMA practitoner should defeat the MMA competitor, rules are not the determining factor. Rules are a determining factor when one is talking sports physicality. The TMA base is superior to the MMA training base.... That's the martial determining factor.

Nothing is 100% guaranteed. 100% of a TMA should have a high chance of beating someone who only does MMA. Some MMA fighters also do TMA's which is why there's not a 100% chance that the MMA guy would loose. It's possible that the MMA guy would actually dump the MMA mindset and fall back on TMA weapon's techniques that they train in.

Just because they are MMA doesn't mean that they don't have a TMA background. It may not be likely but it's still possible.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Nothing is 100% guaranteed. 100% of a TMA should have a high chance of beating someone who only does MMA.

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we agree.
EDIT: traditional karate provides an intelligent approach -- NEVER A GUARANTEE.

Some MMA fighters also do TMA's which is why there's not a 100% chance that the MMA guy would loose. It's possible that the MMA guy would actually dump the MMA mindset and fall back on TMA weapon's techniques that they train in.

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It's the the quality of the TMA that the fulcrum swings on. A quality TMA base is much harder to accomplish than an MMA base, as conventionally practiced. Techniques are secondary....

Just because they are MMA doesn't mean that they don't have a TMA background. It may not be likely but it's still possible.

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Again, what is the quality of that TMA base? The SportsMartialArts.com vid you posted .... MMA would likely flatten those guys like Hughes did Gracie.... lol if deserved anywhere on that one....
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See my bertel kumite vid (POST #1262). the purpose of the training demo in the vid you panned is to provide the traditional karate base to win the Bertel kumite match..... that's what those guys in your 'awful' karate demo vid (Post #1213) are training.... EDIT: believe it or not.... like it or not...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hey, some here like to poke fun @ me. Here's a board breaking demo that is superior to RTKDCMB's demos. And it's presented by a dorky looking / dorky acting instructor similar to me.... so all that want a good laugh on my account, pay attention....

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As dorky as this guy is (I am), he does a good presentation of board breaking form, IMO.
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One interesting takeaway, is that like in JaGow's Shotokan demo kumite, Laszlo Huve presents how to clock the fallen opponent in the face so his nose is flattened into his skull, associated pressure points are whacked, his front teeth are now rolling around in his mouth & the chin/ jaw rocked or cracked. Gracie grapplers, good luck with that....
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edit: Here's the Shotokan demo vid equation: Sound body mechanics + Disciplined KIME = Disabling Effect.
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Thanks Laszlo....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Well all, think this over. Laszlo & I share a lot in common.

 

[drop bear]

Swords are part of Aikido and part of their fighting system.

So not relevant for self defence is the point made. Unless you can get hold of a sword.

Street sword!!!!!

It is not completely true. But probably deserved if you keep on with this akido trumps mma cos swords.

Street sword.

 

[drop bear]

Save your breath on this one. Lead a horse to water. . .
Steve might think an mma fight has a fair chance against a FMA fighter with a escrima stick as well.

I saw this vid where the fighters of the UFC went to the United States Marine Corp. They picked up bayonet simulators and went into the woods whereupon the Marines with knife simulators promptly murdered them.

Same deal with properly trained akidoka with wooden swords.
I mean MMAs dont block. Charge in. And are outranged by 30 to 45 inches. A decent akidoka would target the aggressor's weapons. Broken fists/hands don't punch or grapple well.

There are 8 basic cuts. And the only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses.
Then factor in the many sword based take downs.

One way or another the MMA guy is getting his wig split.
View attachment 19545

Human weapon guy flogged the ninja after a week of training. But the only way to tell is to get a stick a

Yes. I've rolled with my share of NCAA wrestlers. Let's just say that the guard is a wonderful thing.

Against an Olympic wrestler? Not a chance. There's no way I'd be able to keep up with their endurance and explosiveness.

In short, a good wrestler is a tough roll regardless. It gets progressively harder to shut them down the higher you go up the ladder. The difference is that Bjjs ground game can make up for the wrestler's superior takedown and top game.

The thing is your system will work up to a point but will fall down at the point where your oponants skill trumps yours. It is not always system against system sometimes it is person against person.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Here's a board breaking demo that is superior to RTKDCMB's demos.

Really? I broke twice as many boards so I would say that my board breaking demos are twice as superior to his, here's one that is three times as superior;.

But hey, feel free to post your own board breaking demo to show us how it should be done.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So not relevant for self defence is the point made. Unless you can get hold of a sword.

Street sword!!!!!

It is not completely true. But probably deserved if you keep on with this akido trumps mma cos swords.

Street sword.

Depending on where you are carrying a sword is no different than carrying a gun. Depending on what day I'm practicing weapons I may have a sword in the trunk of my car or in the backseat.

Swords use in the world
Man defends himself with a sword
Man defends himself with a zelda sword (not the sword I would have choosen but still a sword)
Burglars stopped with a sword
Store Clerk uses sword to fight against robber (size does matter awesome video robber probably crapped in his pants.)
Homeless man with a sword
John Hopkins student kills burglar with sword
Indian man saves shop keeper from sword attack
Road rage leads to sword attack
Guy with machete gets popped with a gun
Woman uses machete to stop burglar

In Georgia, the county, and city where I live I could walk with a sword on my back if I wanted to. I would probably look stupid doing so but it's legal so long as I have a permit. If I had a conceal weapon permit then I could carry it on my back in one of those nice silk bags and as long as the handle wasn't showing, people probably wouldn't even think twice about what's on my back. A wooden bokken would be no problem at all. Depending on the country you live in, sword and knife attacks may happen more often than in the U.S. The number incidents increases if you include attacks with machetes and defenses with machetes.

With the examples given, I don't see what is wrong with looking at the entire martial arts 100% with no restrictions when talking about self defense. If the fighting system has weapons then why limited the effectiveness of that fighting system with rules that are used in a sport?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Save your breath on this one. Lead a horse to water. . .
Steve might think an mma fight has a fair chance against a FMA fighter with a escrima stick as well.

I saw this vid where the fighters of the UFC went to the United States Marine Corp. They picked up bayonet simulators and went into the woods whereupon the Marines with knife simulators promptly murdered them.

Same deal with properly trained akidoka with wooden swords.
I mean MMAs dont block. Charge in. And are outranged by 30 to 45 inches. A decent akidoka would target the aggressor's weapons. Broken fists/hands don't punch or grapple well.

There are 8 basic cuts. And the only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses.
Then factor in the many sword based take downs.

One way or another the MMA guy is getting his wig split.
View attachment 19545

Yep I may need to save my breath on this one. But seriously if we are talking about effectiveness of fighting systems then weapons are weapons of a fighting system. Fencing is a fighting system, it's not a grappling, punching, or kicking fighting system, but it is a fighting system. We wouldn't compare bjj with fencing by saying. A bjj guy would defeat a fencing guy if they fought MMA rules. lol. But so many people seem to be willing to do that with many TMA fighting systems. Oh MMA beat shaolin fighting systems, if the shaolin fighting system has to follow MMA rules.

I know there are a lot of MMA fans out there and I'm one of them. But like you stated. The only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses. It doesn't matter what weapon it is, that statement hold true. 2 sticks in an everyday person's hands is useless against someone with an escrima stick.

The same can be said with a 6 foot staff. I could give an everyday person who is strong enough to swing a staff, but if they don't have the techniques and knowledge on how to fight with it, then that staff becomes useless. Some people would try big baseball bat swings (end game) or they would try poking with an incorrect grip (end game), others will try to hold it like they see in the movies in hopes that they can figure it out (end game).

From Joe's own mouth "I have never been a part of a Martial Arts that teaches threat awareness." Not my word his.
From Joe's own mouth "Almost everything they are teaching would only work against a non trained opponent." Most people who are attack and are victims of violent crimes come from untrained attackers.
Things that work against skilled martial artist, and "trained killers"... weapons - Good TMA (not the mcdojo stuff) has it covered.

 

[TSDTexan]

Depending on where you are carrying a sword is no different than carrying a gun. Depending on what day I'm practicing weapons I may have a sword in the trunk of my car or in the backseat.

Swords use in the world
Man defends himself with a sword
Man defends himself with a zelda sword (not the sword I would have choosen but still a sword)
Burglars stopped with a sword
Store Clerk uses sword to fight against robber (size does matter awesome video robber probably crapped in his pants.)
Homeless man with a sword
John Hopkins student kills burglar with sword
Indian man saves shop keeper from sword attack
Road rage leads to sword attack
Guy with machete gets popped with a gun
Woman uses machete to stop burglar

In Georgia, the county, and city where I live I could walk with a sword on my back if I wanted to. I would probably look stupid doing so but it's legal so long as I have a permit. If I had a conceal weapon permit then I could carry it on my back in one of those nice silk bags and as long as the handle wasn't showing, people probably wouldn't even think twice about what's on my back. A wooden bokken would be no problem at all. Depending on the country you live in, sword and knife attacks may happen more often than in the U.S. The number incidents increases if you include attacks with machetes and defenses with machetes.

With the examples given, I don't see what is wrong with looking at the entire martial arts 100% with no restrictions when talking about self defense. If the fighting system has weapons then why limited the effectiveness of that fighting system with rules that are used in a sport?

I carry a slingshot that is terrifyingly powerful. I also carry two typed of shot for it. Pepperballs. (Think paintball with pepperspray capzasin content) and steel shot.

40 mm diameter.

It usually is in the small of my back tucked into my belt.
I train 30 minutes daily with it and have done so for about a decade.

I can hit a quarter dollar size coin at 35 feet or almost 11 meters. There are a series of drills to progressively increase accuracy at a distance. Speed comes naturally over deep time.

Quickly, repeatedly and efficiently.
I can do it under pressure as well.

I give my senior students paint ball masks and we go paintballing without the guns. In parking lots, on the streets and alleys, in warehouses and wooded lots.

This trains how to hit a moving target and protect yourself from attack at range. Attacking from cover and concealment.

Bring the pain mode: substitution of pepperballs for paintballs in the range sparing.


I hope to never use it.
But if I come into a situation where my life, or the life and well being of others is in real danger. This will spead the sorting out.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I carry a slingshot that is terrifyingly powerful.

Just like Bart Simpson. Unfortunately those are illegal in Australia.

 

[ballen0351]

I carry a slingshot that is terrifyingly powerful. I also carry two typed of shot for it. Pepperballs. (Think paintball with pepperspray capzasin content) and steel shot.

40 mm diameter.

You sure about that size?

 

[TSDTexan]

Just like Bart Simpson. Unfortunately those are illegal in Australia.

All slingshots or just the ones with wrist support?
I have heard a number of places have banned the wrist supported ones. The ones we use have no wrist support and have flat bands.

 

[TSDTexan]

You sure about that size?

Looking at a pepperbal box right now and laughing. I need a cup of coffee. Good eye... I must have been subconsciously thinking about tear gas grenades and M79 launchers or something.

You are correct. .40 cal.

 

[RTKDCMB]

All slingshots or just the ones with wrist support?

I am not entirely sure but I think they both are. Over here they are often called Gings. I am not sure what Joe Rogan would have to say about them (just to keep on topic)

 

[Steve]

Save your breath on this one. Lead a horse to water. . .
Steve might think an mma fight has a fair chance against a FMA fighter with a escrima stick as well.

I saw this vid where the fighters of the UFC went to the United States Marine Corp. They picked up bayonet simulators and went into the woods whereupon the Marines with knife simulators promptly murdered them.

Same deal with properly trained akidoka with wooden swords.
I mean MMAs dont block. Charge in. And are outranged by 30 to 45 inches. A decent akidoka would target the aggressor's weapons. Broken fists/hands don't punch or grapple well.

There are 8 basic cuts. And the only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses.
Then factor in the many sword based take downs.

One way or another the MMA guy is getting his wig split.
View attachment 19545

LOL. When did you start mixing in escrima? And comparing an aikidoka with a sword shaped stick and a US Marine is pretty insulting to the Marines, IMO. I think the training model for FMA has more in common with MMA than with Aikido. I'd invite some of our resident FMAists to comment on that, as they would know better than I.

FWIW, you're trying to use an association fallacy here. Aikido has little to do with FMA. Aikido has even less in common with the US Marines.

But in the end, it's just a real shame there's no way to know what would happen if you gave an experienced MMAist a stick and asked him to spar with an experienced Aikidoka with a bokken. Just too bad.

 

[ballen0351]

Looking at a pepperbal box right now and laughing. I need a cup of coffee. Good eye... I must have been subconsciously thinking about tear gas grenades and M79 launchers or something.

You are correct. .40 cal.

I was going to say wow thats a monster slingshot to throw 40mm balls

 

[Steve]

Yep I may need to save my breath on this one. But seriously if we are talking about effectiveness of fighting systems then weapons are weapons of a fighting system. Fencing is a fighting system, it's not a grappling, punching, or kicking fighting system, but it is a fighting system. We wouldn't compare bjj with fencing by saying. A bjj guy would defeat a fencing guy if they fought MMA rules. lol. But so many people seem to be willing to do that with many TMA fighting systems. Oh MMA beat shaolin fighting systems, if the shaolin fighting system has to follow MMA rules.

I know there are a lot of MMA fans out there and I'm one of them. But like you stated. The only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses. It doesn't matter what weapon it is, that statement hold true. 2 sticks in an everyday person's hands is useless against someone with an escrima stick.

The same can be said with a 6 foot staff. I could give an everyday person who is strong enough to swing a staff, but if they don't have the techniques and knowledge on how to fight with it, then that staff becomes useless. Some people would try big baseball bat swings (end game) or they would try poking with an incorrect grip (end game), others will try to hold it like they see in the movies in hopes that they can figure it out (end game).

From Joe's own mouth "I have never been a part of a Martial Arts that teaches threat awareness." Not my word his.
From Joe's own mouth "Almost everything they are teaching would only work against a non trained opponent." Most people who are attack and are victims of violent crimes come from untrained attackers.
Things that work against skilled martial artist, and "trained killers"... weapons - Good TMA (not the mcdojo stuff) has it covered.

Fencers spar and compete. Give a fencer a live blade and I expect someone who doesn't spar or compete would get stuck with it pretty quickly. Were I a betting man, I'd wager a fencer would fare far better against an MMAist with a stick than someone who trains in any style that does not incorporate some practical feedback in some way, such as live drills, sparring and competition.

Edit: And for the record, this is another association fallacy, unless you truly believe and are asserting that fencing and aikido share more than an extremely superficial resemblance that amounts to both holding a longish blade/stick.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What about fencer vs a kendo person....