Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

Kung Fu Wang I'm not disagreeing with you just sharing with you how forms are important to me.

I do both form training and drill training. Form training is my library of techniques I have to do the form to remember the numerous techniques. Drill training for me can be done in the form (limited application freedom of when a technique can be launched). The drill training that helps me the most is to be free flowing with the techniques in my form. I break the form completely apart and I try to see which techniques flow well into each other. I first use the techniques that come natural to me and getting those down where I can apply them. After that I add a new technique from the form

I don't add new techniques from my original form until I can execute a technique from almost any position. I sit on the floor, lay on the floor, put my back to the wall, face the wall, intentionally have someone push me off balance and any other possible situation for the sake of understanding the techniques better and to have a feel for which techniques work best and when.

For the next 3 months I'll be learning how to use my techniques to fight with one good hand (due to a broken finger). I'm with you that I enjoy the drill training a lot but I still have to keep up with the forms because the forms have other benefits that the drill doesn't give me. As far as cardiovascular endurance and strengthening, my forms are excellent. I'm stronger and faster because of my forms. But the drilling is also equally important as they help me to actually be able to use what I learned in my forms in an actual fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Can you?

Yes. I've rolled with my share of NCAA wrestlers. Let's just say that the guard is a wonderful thing.

Against an Olympic wrestler? Not a chance. There's no way I'd be able to keep up with their endurance and explosiveness.

In short, a good wrestler is a tough roll regardless. It gets progressively harder to shut them down the higher you go up the ladder. The difference is that Bjjs ground game can make up for the wrestler's superior takedown and top game.

 

[Hanzou]

The Aikido fighting system includes weapons while NCAA wrestling does not. It's possible to stop an NCAA wrestler using Aikido.

Do you tend to carry around samurai swords and spears?

I highly doubt it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You really think an Aikidoka can stop a NCAA wrestler?

I don't.

An Olympic level wrestler? Not a chance.

I believe Aikido can be more combat effective but the training method will need to be modified.

If we look at the following demo clip (I don't know the person in that clip. It's general principle discussion and has nothing to do with individual). We can see something are missing.

- Your opponent always attacks with full commitment. In the real world, people won't be that stupid.
- Even if your opponent attacks with speed, the moment that you apply your move, he has no defense and no counter. In the real world, your opponent will have some defense and counter skill.
- You always deal with your opponent's wrist area. This will not only give too much space between your body and his body, since his elbow joint is free, he can do a lot of counters if he knows how.
- You always wait for your opponent to attack. This will add one extra "dependency" on "how to apply your skill".
- ...

The main concern is, instead of always have to wait for your opponent to attack you, you should attack first. When your opponent responds to your attack, you then respond to his respond. This way, since you don't know what kind of your opponent's respond may come back from your initial attack, your next move will be undefined.

Since you don't know "where" and "how" to obtain your opponent's "contact points", your MA straining will be more realistic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do you tend to carry around samurai swords and spears?

I highly doubt it.

Swords are part of Aikido and part of their fighting system.

 

[TSDTexan]

This will always be the case with form vs real world application. The techniques will still be there but not all will not always look the same. The purpose of the form isn't so that it looks the same in a real fight but to have the same outcome. I can actually show this from a personal experience with me sparring with an opponent.

I can show the form version and I can show the exact form version executed in living sparring. They don't look the same even though I executed both the same way. The difference in looks is caused because of the impact of my leg against an object. The expected results are the same, but the looks aren't, even though the technique is the same.

Except for old Okinawa kata... which had free sparing which was identical to its solo form.
This type of free sparing and fight application was pretty much supressed to the point where no one in Japan taught kumite other than Motobu Choki.

It almost completely died out. After Karate became (in Japan) a hit free sparing was demanded by students.
In the place of real kata related free sparing a new kumite, of improvised free sparing was substituted.

Motobu Choki and a few others actually commented on this directly. And he only practiced Naifachi kata. It was complete. Also was what he used to fight .

 

[Steve]

It's interesting how debates and comments are about TMAs vs MMA are never really compare the arts as a whole. Debates usually always focus on grappling and striking as if that is all within a fighting system. Weapons never come up. Historical context never comes up and McDojos are never distinguished from the real fighting systems.

I do kung fu. If I went against a professional MMA fighter playing by MMA rules then there's a high chance that I'll lose. Here we are both limited to the same rules
If I went against the same MMA fighter on concrete then I feel better about my chances of winning, simply because sweeps done on concrete not only hurt an opponent but has the risk of breaking bone when hitting the ground. Here we are both limited by the same rules and dangers of the concrete
If I used a wax wood staff and gave that same MMA fighter a wax wood staff then there's a high chance that I'll win. Here we are both limited to the same rules and same weapons.

It's just a shame that people like Joe take a part of a fighting system and then make assumptions about the whole of that fighting system and then throw other TMAs into the same boat. An Aikido practitioner with a bokken would beat an MMA practicioner with a bokken but we don't hear Joe ragging MMA out about that. What is really sad is that there are a lot of MMA fighters probably don't hold the same opinions that Joe has. Many of them are more than happy to take various techniques from TMA's so long as that technique helps them to win.

The good thing about Joe is that while he's a "dead horse" topic there has been some really informative stuff that has come out that has nothing to do with Joe at all.

Some questionable logic here. Give an experienced MMA athlete a long stick to hit you with, and he may or may not "win." Depends on how you train. It is not a given that an aikidoka with a bokken would "beat" an MMA practitioner with a sword shaped stick. My belief is that a person can actually be less capable of defending himself training in a way that fosters an unrealistic assessment of what he or she is actually learning (and what they are not learning).

 

[TSDTexan]

Some questionable logic here. Give an experienced MMA athlete a long stick to hit you with, and he may or may not "win." Depends on how you train. It is not a given that an aikidoka with a bokken would "beat" an MMA practitioner with a sword shaped stick. My belief is that a person can actually be less capable of defending himself training in a way that fosters an unrealistic assessment of what he or she is actually learning (and what they are not learning).

Steve... on this one... aikido is a sword art. If the instructor was orthodox and proficient and the student was in proper shape and had applied himself in learning the sword art.

I would say 85% or higher that the aikidoka would beat an mma down. Mma practices dont involve training with or against weapons.

This was demonstrated when ufc guys visited the US MC MAP HQ.

Even when given weapons the marines pwned face.
However most of the marines would not do as well in the octagon.

 

[Steve]

Steve... on this one... aikido is a sword art. If the instructor was orthodox and proficient and the student was in proper shape and had applied himself in learning the sword art.

I would say 85% or higher that the aikidoka would beat an mma down. Mma practices dont involve training with or against weapons.

This was demonstrated when ufc guys visited the US MC MAP HQ.

Even when given weapons the marines pwned face.
However most of the marines would not do as well in the octagon.

I would say that I would believe it when I see it. Otherwise it is speculation.


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[JowGaWolf]

Some questionable logic here. Give an experienced MMA athlete a long stick to hit you with, and he may or may not "win." Depends on how you train. It is not a given that an aikidoka with a bokken would "beat" an MMA practitioner with a sword shaped stick. My belief is that a person can actually be less capable of defending himself training in a way that fosters an unrealistic assessment of what he or she is actually learning (and what they are not learning).

Yes you are correct that it depends on how you train. That is always the case regardless of the activity.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would say that I would believe it when I see it. Otherwise it is speculation.


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What is specualtion? Someone trained to use a weapon would have a high chance of winning against someone who isn't trained to use a weapon?

 

[Steve]

What is specualtion? Someone trained to use a weapon would have a high chance of winning against someone who isn't trained to use a weapon?

Yes. Depends on the training.


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[Steve]

Yes you are correct that it depends on how you train. That is always the case regardless of the activity.

Right. And some training is ineffective. You've said as much yourself. So if someone is training with a sword, shaped stick, but in an ineffective manner, why is it difficult to envision some one who is trained being unable to overcome someone who is not?


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[TSDTexan]

What is specualtion? Someone trained to use a weapon would have a high chance of winning against someone who isn't trained to use a weapon?

Save your breath on this one. Lead a horse to water. . .
Steve might think an mma fight has a fair chance against a FMA fighter with a escrima stick as well.

I saw this vid where the fighters of the UFC went to the United States Marine Corp. They picked up bayonet simulators and went into the woods whereupon the Marines with knife simulators promptly murdered them.

Same deal with properly trained akidoka with wooden swords.
I mean MMAs dont block. Charge in. And are outranged by 30 to 45 inches. A decent akidoka would target the aggressor's weapons. Broken fists/hands don't punch or grapple well.

There are 8 basic cuts. And the only defense is luck if you have no training in weapon defenses.
Then factor in the many sword based take downs.

One way or another the MMA guy is getting his wig split.

 

[ShotoNoob]

That guy is basically stuck in demo mode for which approaches like that are common. If this is the case then that guy doesn't have the basic experience to be sparring let alone going against another fighting style. This is basically what he had playing in his mind of how real fighting is. lol

It actually makes bjj look less impressive because he's not going against a skilled karate fighter. He's just going against a skilled with demo forms.

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Yeah, JowGa, this stuff keeps getting re-posted about how the Shotokan-like traditional karate's have all these faults. And, the overriding reason I took up a style of 'modern' traditional karate was to determine just that.
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But having a broader exposure in TMA, I quickly came to see the universal principles behind & common to all styles of TMA. And those universal principles are clearly & definitely the foundation of the so-called 'modern' traditional karates....
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Your point is well taken about the BJJ'r vs. the so-called karate opponent in the quoted Gracie vid I posted.
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But it is side point. the real, true point is that the 'karate' opponent the Gracies's toss all around & submit, etc., is violating all the universal principles of traditional karate.... so well presented in your kARATE DEMO VID that you pan.... you have missed completely the skill set that is presented in that demo.... one key lesson of which is TOO NEVER ACT LIKE THE GRACIE VID KARATE MORON DID....
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Sparring is not the key to success in the traditional martial arts model. this is a maxim of boxing, sport fighting where doing is succeeding... TMA, which Rogan never got, getting by on his great athletics & very sharp mind, requires a physical then mental base, which to borrow a phrase recently repeated here, develops mind-body unification. Not sharp witted, technical athletic responses....
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In TMA, success is achieved by building a base of mind & body unity which as a complete unit, can out think & then out act the physically gifted opponent.... Sparring is a minor component of that base building process.... less so if one takes seriously the kumite exercises which most don't....
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That's a great vid to flesh out the issues.... for traditional karate, not against it.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Wasn't me. I simply asked you to explain a comment you made. You have not done so.

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you didn't respond to my request either....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I do kung fu. If I went against a professional MMA fighter playing by MMA rules then there's a high chance that I'll lose. Here we are both limited to the same rules.

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The competent TMA practitoner should defeat the MMA competitor, rules are not the determining factor. Rules are a determining factor when one is talking sports physicality. The TMA base is superior to the MMA training base.... That's the martial determining factor.
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[edit]
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IIt's just a shame that people like Joe take a part of a fighting system and then make assumptions about the whole of that fighting system and then throw other TMAs into the same boat. An Aikido practitioner with a bokken would beat an MMA practicioner with a bokken but we don't hear Joe ragging MMA out about that. What is really sad is that there are a lot of MMA fighters probably don't hold the same opinions that Joe has. Many of them are more than happy to take various techniques from TMA's so long as that technique helps them to win.

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Rogan is a stand up comic. & a sport karate competitor & 1-time TKD school owner.... Now an MMA promoter / commentator. I, personally, would not call him a Master of TKD. Not by any means....

 

[TSDTexan]

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Yeah, JowGa, this stuff keeps getting re-posted about how the Shotokan-like traditional karate's have all these faults. And, the overriding reason I took up a style of 'modern' traditional karate was to determine just that.
\
But having a broader exposure in TMA, I quickly came to see the universal principles behind & common to all styles of TMA. And those universal principles are clearly & definitely the foundation of the so-called 'modern' traditional karates....
\
Your point is well taken about the BJJ'r vs. the so-called karate opponent in the quoted Gracie vid I posted.
\
But it is side point. the real, true point is that that 'karate' opponent the Gracies's toss all around & submit, etc., is violating all the universal principles of traditional karate.... so well presented in your kARATE DEMO VID that you pan.... you have missed completely the skill set that is presented in that demo.... one key lesson of which is TOO NEVER ACT LIKE THE GRACIE VID KARATE MORON DID....
\
Sparring is not the key to success in the traditional martial arts model. this is a maxim of boxing, sport fighting where doing is succeeding... TMA, which Rogan never got, getting by on his great athletics & very sharp mind, requires a physical then mental base, which to borrow a phrase recently repeated here, develops mind-body unification. Not sharp witted, technical athletic responses....
\
In TMA, success is achieved by building a base of mind & body unity which as a complete unit, can out think & then out act the physically gifted opponent.... Sparring is a minor component of that base building process.... less so if one takes seriously the kumite exercises which most don't....
\
That's a great vid to flesh out the issues.... for traditional karate, not against it.....

The okinawan art which shotokan came out of has no less than 72 groundfighting newaza techiques. But what about "sport" karate which has tournament rules? Grabbing is a foul under JKA rules. Wouldn't want karateka confused with judoka.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Right. And some training is ineffective. You've said as much yourself. So if someone is training with a sword, shaped stick, but in an ineffective manner, why is it difficult to envision some one who is trained being unable to overcome someone who is not?


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Yes but If I'm going to compare fighting systems then I'm not going to pick a student from a McDojo (with or without a weapon) to go against a professional MMA fighter.
Just like I wouldn't pick a horrible MMA fighter to go against someone with advanced skills in fighting with a weapon.

 

[ShotoNoob]

The okinawan art which shotokan came out of has no less than 72 groundfighting newaza techiques. But what about "sport" karate which has tournament rules? Grabbing is a foul under JKA rules. Wouldn't want karateka confused with judoka.

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Texan.... I am not a sport competitor, nor a sport enthusiast... I look @ the art in it's entirety beginning with principles.....
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Take the Shotokan karate [?] demo vid JaGow panned, which I commented on above. Those practicing karateka do in fact incorporate several grappling maneuvers into their regimen. Of course the Okinawan karates are much broader & have more emphasis on grappling. Why? Because that is the nature of Okinawan karate styles as a group. Nevertheless, both Okinawan & Japanese karate's broach the principles & tactics of grappling.
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And furthermore, what to do, how to respond to some one coming at you in general as portraying in that vid... be it striker or grappler.... the opponent is coming into combat range with intent to do harm.... I don't see those demonstrators exhibiting a lackadaisical mindset until it's too late & the opponent has clocked them a good one or taken them down.... That's the mental skill set that overrides physical training alone.... like me against a Gracie jab/ feint duck into a take down....
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Most karate tournaments, which I am not a proponent of.... exhibit a certain, narrowly defined skill set compared to the complete traditional karate curriculum. If one chooses to be sport oriented and work backward to expediently develop the skills to prevail at sport karate point fighting.... then technically speaking.... that practitioner is no longer training the traditional karate standards &curriculum....
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I believe it was JaGow how who put uf that SPORTS MARTIAL ARTS. COM Point karate tournament vid that showed EXACTLY what I am complaining about... and to the extend of your post... you also.... I don't train like that vid, I don't fight like that vid, that vid is not the traditional karate curriculum skill set to any meaningful extend. it was almost all athletics.... of various levels....
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Traditional karates as a rule tend to emphasize striking. The base skill set underneath that striking enables a striking response that is designed to defeat antagonists entering into combat with you, approaching you to do harm.... rudimentary self defense applications are presented which are grappling attacks, including grappling-like responses. Striking is, yes, the major technical divide.....
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Proper Shotokan tournaments do allow grappling as a supplement to the dominant striking techniques....
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IMHO, the whole TMA point of the JaGow Shotokan demo vid is to be able to hit your opponent hard enough to stop his ability to continue.... If one wants a simple kumite objective, that's the self defense effect sought in that vid. That means defending as well as attacking in a manner that prevents him from hurting you.... All these overall fighting objectives are accomplished by the principles put forth in that vid. EDIT: IN PRINCIPLE.
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It's a mentally-driven process.... It's not about throwing a spinning back kick like Rogan does on YT & smacking a heavy bag all around. Joe Rogan-ites, mentally-blocked rule set fighters..... good luck with that.....