Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[RTKDCMB]

Says it doesn't work.

But he ignores the navy seal that got KOd by a Shaolin fighter, in a boxing ring.

Or a boxer being defeated by a grandmother:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sort of. There is what is called drinking the cool aid. And that is the idea that your technique works even though you have never fought anybody good. So if your staff training is mostly forms and bunkai. You will probably get bashed by a hema or dog brothers guy who is doing contact sparring.
It is this fairly consistent method as to what turns out good fighters.

As for HEMA. the same can be said about a HEMA or dog brothers guy. Take away his sword and put him in the ring then how does he fair against someone who does MMA.
Even if you only train staff forms and don't spar, you'll still have an advantage over an MMA guy that doesn't use a staff at all. If you compare 100% of HEMA vs 100% of MMA then HEMA has a very high chance of winning even if the HEMA person only does forms.

A HEMA person that does contact sparring vs a person that only does kung fu Spear form would will still have trouble beating the staff. A staff is just a spear without the metal head. Kung fu spear technique from someone who only does forms. He still has a good chance putting up a good fight against someone who does HEMA so long as he doesn't try to fight as if he's doing the form.

This is what HEMA would have to face when someone who actually spars using kung fu spear techniques.

HEMA is at a disadvantage because they are still piecing together lost techniques. You can tell in the movements that one system has clearly learned how to be one with the weapon and the other system is still trying to figure it out. I'm not saying HEMA sucks, because I like that they weapon spar. I'm just saying that they really are at the early stages of trying to put a dead fighting system back together with very few actual techniques. The most that they'll get in the end is a hybrid system that may or may not be accurate to HEMAs

 

[Hanzou]

This is Aikido as well. Do the "excellent points" go for these practitioners as well. Are these practitioners just willingly being tossed around? Does it look like the techniques are fake? Do those same "excellent points" apply to these men and women?

No it's not. It's a branch of Aikido that allows competition. The vast majority of Aikido associations don't allow competition, and don't feel that it's "true" Aikido. That includes the Aikikai, which is by far the largest.

It's also interesting how much competitive Aikido resembles Judo.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No it's not. It's a branch of Aikido that allows competition. The vast majority of Aikido associations don't allow competition, and don't feel that it's "true" Aikido. That includes the Aikikai, which is by far the largest.

It's also interesting how much competitive Aikido resembles Judo.

What's the difference between Aikido and a branch of Aikido? It's still Aikido right? It's a shame that other associations don't consider them "true aikido" just because they do competition.

As far as competitive Aikido resembles Judo, I can only say that there are only so many ways to throw bodies and do joint locks before techniques in other systems begin to have some similarities. Maybe that is what you are picking up.

 

[Hanzou]

What's the difference between Aikido and a branch of Aikido? It's still Aikido right? It's a shame that other associations don't consider them "true aikido" just because they do competition.

Competition, that's the difference. Additionally 8/10 of the Aikido schools are going to be Akikai or Yoshinkan, not the competitive version of Aikido. The competitive versions of Aikido are extremely rare.

As far as competitive Aikido resembles Judo, I can only say that there are only so many ways to throw bodies and do joint locks before techniques in other systems begin to have some similarities. Maybe that is what you are picking up.

No, I'm noticing that the competitive version of Aikido looks far different than the Aikido shown in practice or drilling. It certainly doesn't look as smooth or spectacular.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No, I'm noticing that the competitive version of Aikido looks far different than the Aikido shown in practice or drilling. It certainly doesn't look as smooth or spectacular.

This will always be the case with form vs real world application. The techniques will still be there but not all will not always look the same. The purpose of the form isn't so that it looks the same in a real fight but to have the same outcome. I can actually show this from a personal experience with me sparring with an opponent.

I can show the form version and I can show the exact form version executed in living sparring. They don't look the same even though I executed both the same way. The difference in looks is caused because of the impact of my leg against an object. The expected results are the same, but the looks aren't, even though the technique is the same.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This spear form doesn't look like the spear sparring video that I posted. And someone who saw him do forms would doubt that the techniques would actually work in a real situation. Actual use of technique doesn't always look like what is done in the form, but it's clearly there, because those kung fu guys with the spears clearly know how to use the spear and that skill clearly didn't come from sparring alone.

 

[drop bear]

As for HEMA. the same can be said about a HEMA or dog brothers guy. Take away his sword and put him in the ring then how does he fair against someone who does MMA.
Even if you only train staff forms and don't spar, you'll still have an advantage over an MMA guy that doesn't use a staff at all. If you compare 100% of HEMA vs 100% of MMA then HEMA has a very high chance of winning even if the HEMA person only does forms.

A HEMA person that does contact sparring vs a person that only does kung fu Spear form would will still have trouble beating the staff. A staff is just a spear without the metal head. Kung fu spear technique from someone who only does forms. He still has a good chance putting up a good fight against someone who does HEMA so long as he doesn't try to fight as if he's doing the form.

This is what HEMA would have to face when someone who actually spars using kung fu spear techniques.

HEMA is at a disadvantage because they are still piecing together lost techniques. You can tell in the movements that one system has clearly learned how to be one with the weapon and the other system is still trying to figure it out. I'm not saying HEMA sucks, because I like that they weapon spar. I'm just saying that they really are at the early stages of trying to put a dead fighting system back together with very few actual techniques. The most that they'll get in the end is a hybrid system that may or may not be accurate to HEMAs

It is a pity there isn't a vehicle that could either prove or disprove your theory. Mabye some sort of gathering where like minded weapon practitioners could get together and spar.

So I guess we will just never know.

 

[drop bear]

I don't believe its a shame at all. Joe made a lot of excellent points in that video. The guy he was talking to was clearly delusional and literally making up complete BS throughout the entire exchange.

Yes and no. The NCAA wrestler is not as fair a judge of technique as we would like to think. So say I use the most bullet proof takedown defence there is. And test it against a world class wrestler. What do you think would be the result?

 

[Hanzou]

This will always be the case with form vs real world application. The techniques will still be there but not all will not always look the same. The purpose of the form isn't so that it looks the same in a real fight but to have the same outcome. I can actually show this from a personal experience with me sparring with an opponent.

I can show the form version and I can show the exact form version executed in living sparring. They don't look the same even though I executed both the same way. The difference in looks is caused because of the impact of my leg against an object. The expected results are the same, but the looks aren't, even though the technique is the same.

Well yeah, because forms are worthless nonsense. I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about the technique itself shown in Aikido demonstrations vs Aikido competition.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes and no. The NCAA wrestler is not as fair a judge of technique as we would like to think. So say I use the most bullet proof takedown defence there is. And test it against a world class wrestler. What do you think would be the result?

You really think an Aikidoka can stop a NCAA wrestler?

I don't.

An Olympic level wrestler? Not a chance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It is a pity there isn't a vehicle that could either prove or disprove your theory. Mabye some sort of gathering where like minded weapon practitioners could get together and spar.

So I guess we will just never know.

I think that would be great there's a group where I live that is doing that now, just not with weapons. Weapons sparring requires a lot of control. The guys fighting with the spears clearly have more control than me or my fellow students. The group will have to have practitioners that have control and know that people don't actually be jabbed in the mouth for them to understand that it's a possible outcome.

 

[drop bear]

Well yeah, because forms are worthless nonsense. I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about the technique itself shown in Aikido demonstrations vs Aikido competition.

Bjj drills the application. Rather than applies the form. And that makes a big difference.

 

[drop bear]

You really think an Aikidoka can stop a NCAA wrestler?

I don't.

An Olympic level wrestler? Not a chance.

Can you?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well yeah, because forms are worthless nonsense. I'm not talking about forms, I'm talking about the technique itself shown in Aikido demonstrations vs Aikido competition.

Some of those same Aikido techniques were actually pulled off in the Aikido sparring video that I posted.
My first double leg sweep ever was executed with only form practice showing me how to do the technique. I got that on video as proof of how useful forms can be.

 

[drop bear]

I think that would be great there's a group where I live that is doing that now, just not with weapons. Weapons sparring requires a lot of control. The guys fighting with the spears clearly have more control than me or my fellow students. The group will have to have practitioners that have control and know that people don't actually be jabbed in the mouth for them to understand that it's a possible outcome.

There are plenty of groups that spar in different systems. You would not have to just assume yours is better. You could go find out.

 

[drop bear]

Some of those same Aikido techniques were actually pulled off in the Aikido sparring video that I posted.
My first double leg sweep ever was executed with only form practice showing me how to do the technique. I got that on video as proof of how useful forms can be.

There is some akido techniques that work. That is not really in debate. There s nothing separating the stuff that works from the stuff that dosent. Unless you train with resistance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You really think an Aikidoka can stop a NCAA wrestler?

I don't.

An Olympic level wrestler? Not a chance.

The Aikido fighting system includes weapons while NCAA wrestling does not. It's possible to stop an NCAA wrestler using Aikido.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There are plenty of groups that spar in different systems. You would not have to just assume yours is better. You could go find out.

I never assume that my fighting system is better. I always spar against people with the assumption that they are dangerous and are worth my respect that they can do harm to me. That way I don't go into the fight half-assed and clouded with ego.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This will always be the case with form vs real world application.

I'm strongly against the form training but I love the drills training. If you train drills instead of form, you can add proper footwork to meet your need which may not exist in your form.

In stick fight, the dog brothers like to run toward their opponents with attacking. It's like the horse back fight that you may only have one chance. The footwork will be important there.