Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

As a society we are still beating the dead horse of Darwinism and climate change.

I mean there is a creation museum.
Creation Museum - Creation, Evolution, Science, Dinosaurs, Family, Christian Worldview | Creation Museum

So I am not sure the dead horse comment is relevant. If you defined this by scientific method. Many martial arts would just fall over.

Martial arts that pressure test. Would pass. And that would be the end of it.

But martial arts encompasses more than that so the debate continues.

And it is not necessarily mma vs sword fighter. That is apples and oranges. It would be training sword using mma training methods. Vs by rote kata and drills.

Dropbear please dont bring up religious stuff pro or con in a argument to support a position in a MA related thread. It does your case more harm then good. Free advice.

 

[TSDTexan]

I will take a samurai derived art user with a bokken any day vs mma guy.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You ever used a knife on a guy or seen someone machetied?

Have you been in a weapon fight?

It is a pretty big step to take.
The thing I like about unarmed S.D. is I have some control over whether I kill someone or not.

And you still don't know how you are actually going to go against this untrained guy.

It doesn't take alot of brain power to stab someone with a knife it's the not getting cut part or should I say not taking critical injury part that is the challenge. I was a decision away (5 minutes) from stabbing someone with a knife at the age of 13. I've seen people who have been stabbed and slashed with knives, I've seen people how have been hacked with machetes, my wife was unfortunate enough to have her abdomen sliced by a girl attacking her with a knife.

I've been in a weapon fight with sticks if that counts. We both didn't know how to fight with sticks and both didn't want to be hit so most of it was one hitting and the other getting out of the way. Other than that and the 2 occasions where I have had guns pointed to my head at 2 separate occasions (in my 20's) that's it. I train in hand vs knife scenarios where my classmates actually stab and slash at me. We use cold steel training knives and I hate that they still hurt when being stabbed or when someone hacks with the knife and I can feel it to the bone of my fingers or wrists. I still get cut but not stabbed as much (not like when I first started). I train with the staff but we don't go full contact fighting. We do train doing attacks and blocking attacks at 30%-50% force.

My goal is to not be in another hostile situation again that involves guns or knives being directed towards me. I don't like tempting fate, but I do want to be prepared for it just in case it happens again.

If I had to fight against someone with a staff in a real fight, I would take note of how he holds the staff which will help me to determine if he knew how to actually use it. I would also check his grip to see if there's an opportunity to actually knock the stick out of his hand using my staff. I would check his stance to see if there is an opportunity to go for the joints in his legs (knee or ankle). I would check to see if hitting the shin is an option. I would also try to determine if he might try to shoot on me as well. I definitely want to keep that option away from him. He may be willing to take a hit if he thinks he can shoot on me and disarm me. I would only use the techniques that I can generate power with. My main goal would be to access his knowledge of a staff as quickly as possible. The staff can be devastating only if you know how to generate enough power to strike your opponent hard with it, this is where technique comes in.

If you train with a weapon then you should be developing the control that you would need to either severely injure or kill.




My weapon fighting is only I've seen people stabbed and hacked with machetes.

 

[TSDTexan]

The current MCMAP is not primarily "killing." It was developed for the Marine Corps' changing mission, and geared more towards "arrest" and police action....as well as fitness.

From a combat aspect, and even martial arts aspect, having had recent direct experience with it, I gotta say it kinda sucks....it's okay for people who have time to pursue it and some other (real) martial art alongside it, but most Marines don't have any real skill at it, or the time to develop it.




Having direct experience with both arts, the differences are technical as well as philosophical.

Yes but would say the difference in philosophy is greater than the difference in technicals.

About the USMCMAP... it was a less lethal replacement fo Linear Infighting Neural Override Engagement which was a less lethal replacement for post WW2 H2H killing training.

It has been scaling back for a while.

FMFRP 12-80 is titled "Kill or be Killed" for a reason
This field manual was created for marines.

The fact you bring up about the USMCMAP being more cop-jutsu and less killem-fu actually works for my case of unarmed mma guys vs akidoka with bokken.

I mean a weaker US marine core martial art handled the ufc guys

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[JowGaWolf]

And that pretty much explains my issue here. You don't have the practical experience.
You get the same with people who watch mma fights. And are like. "But they swing so wildy and do not have the sophistication that my martial art does"

It comes from defining fighting ability from the wrong place.

I didn't say that those guys didn't have deadly staff or spear skills, it's just that the video isn't what they were using. Here's a closer look at some stick fighting. Notice that sticks are highly flexible and that they actually break.

List to how they view what they are doing

A wild punch is not the same as punching done with control. There is a big difference. You can tell when someone swings wildly because they have no control over that punch and they are poorly aimed. It's not to say that the wild punches aren't dangerous because they are, but they are also over committed,poorly aimed and eat up a lot of energy.
Wild Punch

 

[Hanzou]

Swords are part of Aikido and part of their fighting system.

Yeah, and you didn't answer my question.

 

[Hanzou]

I will take a samurai derived art user with a bokken any day vs mma guy.

View attachment 19550

You do realize that attacking someone with a sword gives them grounds to blow off your head right?

 

[drop bear]

It doesn't take alot of brain power to stab someone with a knife it's the not getting cut part or should I say not taking critical injury part that is the challenge. I was a decision away (5 minutes) from stabbing someone with a knife at the age of 13. I've seen people who have been stabbed and slashed with knives, I've seen people how have been hacked with machetes, my wife was unfortunate enough to have her abdomen sliced by a girl attacking her with a knife.

I've been in a weapon fight with sticks if that counts. We both didn't know how to fight with sticks and both didn't want to be hit so most of it was one hitting and the other getting out of the way. Other than that and the 2 occasions where I have had guns pointed to my head at 2 separate occasions (in my 20's) that's it. I train in hand vs knife scenarios where my classmates actually stab and slash at me. We use cold steel training knives and I hate that they still hurt when being stabbed or when someone hacks with the knife and I can feel it to the bone of my fingers or wrists. I still get cut but not stabbed as much (not like when I first started). I train with the staff but we don't go full contact fighting. We do train doing attacks and blocking attacks at 30%-50% force.

My goal is to not be in another hostile situation again that involves guns or knives being directed towards me. I don't like tempting fate, but I do want to be prepared for it just in case it happens again.

If I had to fight against someone with a staff in a real fight, I would take note of how he holds the staff which will help me to determine if he knew how to actually use it. I would also check his grip to see if there's an opportunity to actually knock the stick out of his hand using my staff. I would check his stance to see if there is an opportunity to go for the joints in his legs (knee or ankle). I would check to see if hitting the shin is an option. I would also try to determine if he might try to shoot on me as well. I definitely want to keep that option away from him. He may be willing to take a hit if he thinks he can shoot on me and disarm me. I would only use the techniques that I can generate power with. My main goal would be to access his knowledge of a staff as quickly as possible. The staff can be devastating only if you know how to generate enough power to strike your opponent hard with it, this is where technique comes in.

If you train with a weapon then you should be developing the control that you would need to either severely injure or kill.




My weapon fighting is only I've seen people stabbed and hacked with machetes.

So wait. Are you carrying a stick or a sword for S.D?
Because I can't see how using a sword is not going to potentially maim someone.

But OK you are carrying a stick. And you think I can't generate a powerful strike without training as if anyone has not hit something with a stick. I can hit a small round ball pretty hard with a stick. But you are suggesting hitting a head with a stick will be harder? Or I am not going to hit them with enough force?

Good job nobody gets technical about swinging a stick around.

OK. So you are better than someone who dosent train stick.

(Let's tie the suri stick fighting in here)

You are better than someone who actually does stick fighting.

What evidence have you got that has taken you to this conclusion?

Training will make you better than someone who is untrained. Provided it is the right training. How do you know you are doing the right training?

And regarding the mma guy verses you and sticks. Why would it be so hard just to get some padded sticks find a mma fighter and find out for sure?

You seem to have your conclusions based on everything but evidence.

 

[Steve]

someone asked to see it

LOL. I think I was too subtle. They are both martial arts that pressure test their skills through competition.

 

[drop bear]

I will take a samurai derived art user with a bokken any day vs mma guy.

View attachment 19550

We could find out. It is not that hard. Same deal, get them together get some padded bloody sticks.

This is where Joe rogan is coming from. Not a mma guy could just shoot a samurai. But that people hold beliefs such as yours that could be easily tested. And instead of testing them. Come up with a whole bunch of nonsense as to why it would work.

Martial arts is full of this mindset. Akido guy had this mindset. That is drinking the cool aid.

It is not a martial art being better or worse. It is just looking at things a bit differently.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And it is not necessarily mma vs sword fighter. That is apples and oranges.

I don't see it as a vs issue. I see it as a comparison of fighting systems. When you are just doing a comparison then you are taking 100% of a fighting system and comparing it to 100% of another fighting system. By doing this you can compare where the fighting system is effective and where it's not effective. But you have to look at 100% of a fighting system and not just 50% or even 20% of a fighting system and declaring that it's not effected based on the 20% or 50%.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, and you didn't answer my question.

"Swords are part of the Aikido fightnig system." That was probably my answer. What was your question, just in case you asked me if I want a million dollars.

 

[drop bear]

Dropbear please dont bring up religious stuff pro or con in a argument to support a position in a MA related thread. It does your case more harm then good. Free advice.

Evidence based vs dogma. Not specifically about religion.
There are plenty of viable religious martial artists.

This guy for example.

There are even religious people who subscribe to Darwinism. So I don't see how this is a religious vs non religious argument.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You do realize that attacking someone with a sword gives them grounds to blow off your head right?

Guns beat swords lol..except for one of those articles where the burglars had guns and still got the sword lol. But 99.999% of the time gun beat swords lol.

 

[drop bear]

I don't see it as a vs issue. I see it as a comparison of fighting systems. When you are just doing a comparison then you are taking 100% of a fighting system and comparing it to 100% of another fighting system. By doing this you can compare where the fighting system is effective and where it's not effective. But you have to look at 100% of a fighting system and not just 50% or even 20% of a fighting system and declaring that it's not effected based on the 20% or 50%.

So akido is effective against completely untrained people hopefully.

Which is the point Joe rogan made as well.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You ever used a knife on a guy or seen someone machetied?

Have you been in a weapon fight?

It is a pretty big step to take.
The thing I like about unarmed S.D. is I have some control over whether I kill someone or not.

And you still don't know how you are actually going to go against this untrained guy.

No, I haven't. Yes, I have, lots.

I've been attacked with weapons, but I've always been unarmed.

This is an ignorant statement. I have at least as much control over the life or death decision when I am armed.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[Steve]

And it is not necessarily mma vs sword fighter. That is apples and oranges. It would be training sword using mma training methods. Vs by rote kata and drills.

Yes. It's about how people train more than what they train. Some schools train in a more practical manner than others. Feedback is critical, and if you aren't training in a way that is giving you reliable feedback, there will be a gap between what you know and what you think you know. And if the stakes are high, that could be a pretty dangerous blind spot.

If you are going with my greater than 85%...
Please allow my stipulated criteria.

If 100 fights happen between various mma vs Aikidoka
And...
If the instructor was orthodox (correct art transmission)
and...
If the instructor was proficient (knew how to correctly teach)
and...
the student was in proper shape (his body and mind could properly perform, the art he was correctly taught)
and...
The student had applied himself in learning the sword art.
(He sought excellence and was good at aikido sword work)

With these conditions set... 85 fights of 100 would be won by Aikidoka... or more.

Now the reason I can estimate is I have seen UFC grade mma fighters go up against weapons. They have no training and have to reinvent the wheel (unarmed vs armed) while a lion is running at them.

Maybe 15 guys of a hundred will get lucky enough to see an opening and exploit it.

But I don't event believe 15 would. Maybe less.

But that would be a wager I would bet.

Not one word of what you just said is supported by anything more than your imagination. I could just as easily say in a 100 matches between a 12 year old and a 13 year old, the 12 year olds would lose 85% of the time. Complete fiction. I have a pretty vivid imagination, so if we're going to pretend our imaginations are reality, I'm not sure you've got the chops. 92% of the time, my ability to make things up is going to submit your insistence that if you say it, it is so.

I will take a samurai derived art user with a bokken any day vs mma guy.

View attachment 19550

FWIW, there are some Japanese arts that I would have a lot of confidence in, and some I would not. Or more specifically, some schools, because as we've all acknowledged, some schools are better than others within any style. And what makes one school better than another? In most cases, it is how they train.

I don't see it as a vs issue. I see it as a comparison of fighting systems. When you are just doing a comparison then you are taking 100% of a fighting system and comparing it to 100% of another fighting system. By doing this you can compare where the fighting system is effective and where it's not effective. But you have to look at 100% of a fighting system and not just 50% or even 20% of a fighting system and declaring that it's not effected based on the 20% or 50%.

I think this is actually pretty close. I don't see it as a comparison of fighting systems. Rather, it's a comparison of training and testing models. How does the school decide what to teach? How do they test for proficiency? How to they ensure that the student is actually learning what the students thinks he/she is learning?

Some styles adhere more consistently to one training model or another, which can lead to conclusions that are broader, but as we've all acknowledged, there are good schools and bad within every style.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Really? I broke twice as many boards so I would say that my board breaking demos are twice as superior to his, here's one that is three times as superior;.

But hey, feel free to post your own board breaking demo to show us how it should be done.

\
NOW, NOW, rtkdcmb....that's just my point, though a bit elliptical... made 3x over now by your response. I said your board breaks were pretty good. <<< PLEASE NOTE THE COMPLIMENT.....
\
But more is not necessarily better. You also omitted Laszlos' demo was purely instruction in its objective.... don't make those mistakes with me in kumite....
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BTW, I never break boards down like in your demo because it is the easiest way to break them.... dropping one's body weight behind the strike. Good practice though for schooling those unwitting\ guard Gracie-like grapple-rs who landed on the bottom.
'----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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I specifically posted Laszlo as a stand-in. So @ least I did that much. The point is that 'dorky' Laszlo has technique is better than your form, especially in KIME. Your instinctual KIME is pretty good & account for the strong breaks, no denying that... You really pop those boards. Laszlo, like me, is more disciplined mentally in applying that KIME, and it shows on how he moves. Laszlo is SMOOTH & precise (pretty much so), you are somewhat forced.... to begin with.
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These qualities can then be seen in the Bertel Kumite vid I posted. Your form is more like the loser. But I think your initial attack against Bertel would have had stronger KIME hence greater success ... based on your series of BB demos. You also just might have gotten that block up against the KO punch.... but you would likely had trouble recovering from the sweep based on your BB routine....
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Laszlo & I share more with Bertel, smooth & precise.... which then engenders dynamic speed + requisite power which we then see deadly in the Bertel vid.
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I'll take a rest here, but thanks for replying diligently.... P.. I have watched your BB vids many time... enjoyed thoroughly including as a + for TMA. keep up the good work...

 

[drop bear]

No, I haven't. Yes, I have, lots.

I've been attacked with weapons, but I've always been unarmed.

This is an ignorant statement. I have at least as much control over the life or death decision when I am armed.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

With a sword?