Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

Nah!..I didn't do that until about 1991/92, but by then I had added Long Fist, Taiji, and a little Xingyi . Got the coolest beating I ever got from a Southern Mantis guy who was also an ex-marine.

A marine is a marine, there are no ex-marines.
As told to me by many, many marines. You are either an active marine or an inactive one. You can take a marine out of the corps but you can never take the corps out of the marine.

 

[Drose427]

Nah!..I didn't do that until about 1991/92, but by then I had added Long Fist, Taiji, and a little Xingyi . Got the coolest beating I ever got from a Southern Mantis guy who was also an ex-marine.

I absolutely love working with current or ex military.

Especially if theyve been stationed or deployed overseas

Usually they like to spar hard, and have always picked up an interesting thing to two

 

[TSDTexan]

Interesting thing - if you do a Google image search for "boxing knockouts" or "MMA knockouts" you find a ton of examples where the non-punching hand is down, dare we say "chambered" by the lower ribs or even all the way down by the hip. This isn't just amateurs - you'll see it from top professionals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Boxers and karateka may learn the rear cross/reverse punch somewhat differently in their idealized training forms, but once they get into a real fight they start looking pretty much the same.

Other than the weighted glove of a boxer, and the effect that the glove has... they are the same.
Other than this...
With the pullback immediately upon impact in karate rather than the follow through into full extension/overextension of the boxer.
Which necessity dictates the karate guy fire from a much closer distance, and the boxer can shoot at almost the end of his reach.

My reverse punch extended reach is 25 inches before spinal rotation (hip and sholder).
If I am trying to punch the back of the guys skull. Then my punch target is actually 8 to 10 inches behind his face. Which means my range begins at 15 to 18 inches plus spine rotation.

My rear cross is farther out with serious commitment to follow through. It's range starts with the 3 or 4 inches of boxing glove which is 22 inches before spine rotation then a follow through of 6 to 8 inches.

So effectively for me there is almost a foot of distance between these two punches for the terminus.

At the end of a right cross I have to adjust my feet, and body to regain my posture or fight with compromised structure and balance.

At the end of a reverse punch, I am already firing the next, I do not have to move my feet to regain posture.

 

[Drose427]

Other than the weighted glove of a boxer, and the effect that the glove has... they are the same.
Other than this...
With the pullback immediately upon impact in karate rather than the follow through into full extension/overextension of the boxer.
Which necessity dictates the karate guy fire from a much closer distance, and the boxer can shoot at almost the end of his reach.

My reverse punch extended reach is 25 inches before spinal rotation (hip and sholder).
If I am trying to punch the back of the guys skull. Then my punch target is actually 8 to 10 inches behind his face. Which means my range begins at 15 to 18 inches plus spine rotation.

My rear cross is farther out with serious commitment to follow through. It's range starts with the 3 or 4 inches of boxing glove which is 22 inches before spine rotation then a follow through of 6 to 8 inches.

So effectively for me there is almost a foot of distance between these two punches for the terminus.

To be fair, some styles(or substyles/associations) do extend all the way instead of keeping the shoulders square.

Im not sure its accurate to make that distinction

 

[TSDTexan]

The Cross
The right cross punch (power punch) begins with elevation at the right scapula involving upper traps 1 & 2 and levator scapulae mainly. The same exact 7 movements occur simultaneously except using the right side of the body: protraction of right scapula, right GH joint flexion and medial rotation, right elbow joint extension, right RU joint pronation, and rotation/lateral flexion towards left side of body using left internal and right external obliques. However, the incorporation of the lower body makes this phase the “power punch” phase.

The movements of the lower body are synchronized with those of the upper body simultaneously in creating a very forceful punch.

Starting with the right hip joint, medial rotation takes place using mainly the anterior portion of gluteus minimus and tensor fascia latae (TFL). The knee joint remains in slight flexion. At the right ankle joint there is plantar flexion using mainly the gastrocnemius (gastrocs), soleus, and plantaris muscles as well as inversion using mainly the tibialis posterior, flexor digitorum longus, and flexor hallucis longus (collectively called TDH muscles).

Again, all of the upper and lower body movements occur fairly simultaneously and is a whole movement that takes a lot of practice to get perfect.

The Reverse Punch doesn't require as much shoulder and arm strength to be effective which is why the range is reduced.

 

[TSDTexan]

To be fair, some styles(or substyles/associations) do extend all the way instead of keeping the shoulders square.

Im not sure its accurate to make that distinction

Correct, I am of course speaking from the style of art that I have trained in. But the fact that other styles extend all the way doesn't negate the fact that my style doesn't. In fact all karateka can do both.

Both are Karate.
On another thread I showed with video Two variations of the same form.
Kicho An Il Boo, and Kihon Kata (first kata, basic form 1)
TEZ3 said TSD practioners in the UK did the Korean Karate form the way the Japanese did in Kihon Kata.

However there is video of our founder doing it with square sholders when reverse punching.

So in TSD we have practioners doing both.
I have seen this in other species of Karate as well.

And I do rotate my hip/spine while keeping my sholders square.

For speeding the rate of fire.

If I rotate my sholders' in addition, my recovery time to fire the next punch increases because of the need to reverse the added step.

As the body is now facing perpendicular to the target upon impact' when previously it wasnt.

However, even with sholder rotation the Karateka should never be overextended to the degree feet have to move.
If feet have to move for this punch... its very bad form. Even... incorrect form.

 

[ballen0351]

A marine is a marine, there are no ex-marines.
As told to me by many, many marines. You are either an active marine or an inactive one. You can take a marine out of the corps but you can never take the corps out of the marine.

I really hate that saying. I did my time in the Marine Corps. I got out Im not a Marine any longer so yes I'm an ex-marine.I hate when people get all bent out of shape over ex-marine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I absolutely love working with current or ex military.

Especially if theyve been stationed or deployed overseas

Usually they like to spar hard, and have always picked up an interesting thing to two

He also had pretty much grown up training with a sifu in Southern Mantis, and then joined the marines. He was incredibly athletic and a very good fighter and he tended towards his Southern Mantis training.. and except for one lucky strike using Xingyiquan (Piquan, the ONLY one I knew then) where I actually knocked him down...before he popped back up like a weeble... he dominated the match

 

[TSDTexan]

I really hate that saying. I did my time in the Marine Corps. I got out Im not a Marine any longer so yes I'm an ex-marine.I hate when people get all bent out of shape over ex-marine.

Your useage of the word Hate... lets me know that you have strong feelings about the subject. Why such strong emotions if you are just an ex?
As a LEO do you treat an ExConvict like someone who is a convict or a law abiding citizen? I suspect that your level of scrutiny at a stop, increases when a check comes back on a guy with lots of priors.
Why... human nature.
Once a con... always a con is the rule not the exception.

 

[Xue Sheng]

A marine is a marine, there are no ex-marines.
As told to me by many, many marines. You are either an active marine or an inactive one. You can take a marine out of the corps but you can never take the corps out of the marine.

The guy I am talking about referred to himself as an ex-marine. Also worked with two marines, one Vietnam era who said he use to be a marine and he was a marine. Another, younger, said the same thing. The only other thing he ever said about it was in association with his going into the Army National Guard. HE said if he knew the Army was that easy he would have joined them first and probably stayed in for 20. Another good friend, who was a Vietnam era marine, never said he was still a marine, he would say he was in Nam, and the rest of the stories he told about it were fairly horrible and I am guessing his drinking problem had a lot to do with trying to forget the entire thing..

But with that said, I have run into a few that say what you have stated

Your useage of the word Hate... lets me know that you have strong feelings about the subject. Why such strong emotions if you are just an ex?
As a LEO do you treat an ExConvict like someone who is a convict or a law abiding citizen? I suspect that your level of scrutiny at a stop, increases when a check comes back on a guy with lots of priors.
Why... human nature.
Once a con... always a con is the rule not the exception.

You seem to have extrapolated an awful lot of info out of a very short simple statement and penned that into a personal attack...that is not cool

 

[TSDTexan]

The guy I am talking about referred to himself as an ex-marine. Also worked with two marines, one Vietnam era who said he use to be a marine and he was a marine. Another, younger, said the same thing. The only other thing he ever said about it was in association with his going into the Army National Guard. HE said if he knew the Army was that easy he would have joined them first and probably stayed in for 20. Another good friend, who was a Vietnam era marine, never said he was still a marine, he would say he was in Nam, and the rest of the stories he told about it were fairly horrible and I am guessing his drinking problem had a lot to do with trying to forget the entire thing..

But with that said, I have run into a few that say what you have stated



You seem to have extrapolated an awful lot of info out of a very short simple statement and penned that into a personal attack...that is not cool

Wasnt meant as an attack.

Marines Mobile > Home

CMC's Planning Guidance:

It begins with the Commandant's Priorities, then his Planning Guidance follow, and is in turn followed by some very important information, important to all of us. A quote from the Commandant, General James F. Amos:

"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine."

The Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James F. Amos

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wasnt meant as an attack.

Marines Mobile > Home

CMC's Planning Guidance:

It begins with the Commandant's Priorities, then his Planning Guidance follow, and is in turn followed by some very important information, important to all of us. A quote from the Commandant, General James F. Amos:

"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine."

The Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James F. Amos

That's nice, and it matters to the people I am talking about, getting me to admit I was wrong and proving your position how? They said what they said they believe what they believe, and I am still not going to retract my ex-marine statement in my previous post so this is all not only getting way off post but really pretty pointless. And lastly Policies are for Guidance on Non-Binding Documents

 

[drop bear]

Interesting thing - if you do a Google image search for "boxing knockouts" or "MMA knockouts" you find a ton of examples where the non-punching hand is down, dare we say "chambered" by the lower ribs or even all the way down by the hip. This isn't just amateurs - you'll see it from top professionals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Boxers and karateka may learn the rear cross/reverse punch somewhat differently in their idealized training forms, but once they get into a real fight they start looking pretty much the same.

My theory on that is it is easier to punch that way. So you get a split second advantage in speed and some better angles. But you pay for it with lack of defence. So if your timing is up to speed. Hands down punching is viabe. If it isn't. Hands need to be up.

It is a top tier method though not a basic.

 

[drop bear]

Hmm... I work with ceramics. I have done so since age 9.
I have also done horticulture and landscapping. As an adult who cleared land for profit.

In my life have butchered about 100 swine, 4000 cattle, countless whitertail and mule deer.
[I was a egg and vegetarian for almost decade after that.]

Human collarbones and bones in general are not really easy to break like ceramics. There is a lot of give that is unexpected.

A good comparison would be a wet or green sapling vs a dry annd seasoned one.

However a proper axe will break a collarbone. No doubt. Also a throw done to someone who doent know how to break their fall... collar break.

Now most folks cannot do a proper axe kick soo...

A jumping double knifehand strike following a stunning blow is high percentage for broken collar bones.

There is an issue of time. For mma especially you are trying to slip your strikes in between their strikes and it is a lot harder to get moves like jumping knife hands after a stunning blow.

They have thrown 10 punches in the time it takes to set that up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My theory on that is it is easier to punch that way. So you get a split second advantage in speed and some better angles. But you pay for it with lack of defence. So if your timing is up to speed. Hands down punching is viabe. If it isn't. Hands need to be up.

It is a top tier method though not a basic.

I mostly tend to agree. A significant difference in training methodology is that boxers start out learning to punch with their hands up and eventually learn when it is appropriate to let them be low. Karateka are more likely to start out learning to punch with hands low and then learn when to keep them up.*

Personally I think the boxing approach is the safer way to learn, but at a high level it all starts to come together.

*(Obviously given the wide range of karate styles out there this is not a universal statement.)

 

[drop bear]

To be fair, some styles(or substyles/associations) do extend all the way instead of keeping the shoulders square.

Im not sure its accurate to make that distinction

And a right cross will change depending what you want it to do.

 

[Steve]

A jumping double knifehand strike following a stunning blow is high percentage for broken collar bones.

I think a springboard corkscrew splash is more reliable, unless your opponent counters with an elevated double chickenwing dropped into a double knee gutbuster.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think the difference in the punch isn't so much about the punch as it is about other factors. Boxers learn to punch with comfort of knowing that their opponent will ALWAYS PUNCH. Martial artists punch with the knowledge and understanding that their opponent will do more than just punch. Martial artists have to deal with a wide range of attacks that boxers do not deal with. Boxers only have to worry about punches coming in. Martial artist have to worry about everything coming in.

The punches that both boxing and martial arts uses reflect they type of attacks that they will get from their opponent. If Boxers were allowed to sweep legs in addition to punching, then the dynamics of how the boxer throws punches and those punches would not be the same as it is now.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's nice, and it matters to the people I am talking about, getting me to admit I was wrong and proving your position how? They said what they said they believe what they believe, and I am still not going to retract my ex-marine statement in my previous post so this is all not only getting way off post but really pretty pointless. And lastly Policies are for Guidance on Non-Binding Documents

Fair enough. My last point is that no one is a marine until they graduate Marine boot camp. And you cannot ungraduate marine boot camp or pretty much anything else. Which is why there is a timeless statement "once a marine, always a marine".
While it may not be a binding document... it is still clarification on what makes a marine a marine in the first place.


I dont need you to admit your position is wrong or anything of the sort. I am just offering food for thought in a counterpoint.
There are a few marines I know who take offense to the use of the term Ex-marine. Just saying.

And you make a good point. It probably doesn't matter at all to your marine friend.

Dropbear...
Notice I said "Following a stunning blow." They are not going to fire off 10 shots cause their bell just got rung. A double knifehand is a finisher. Because two broken clavicles is going wreck a fighter.
This is not something you just do random in a fight.

 

[ballen0351]

Wasnt meant as an attack.

Marines Mobile > Home

CMC's Planning Guidance:

It begins with the Commandant's Priorities, then his Planning Guidance follow, and is in turn followed by some very important information, important to all of us. A quote from the Commandant, General James F. Amos:

"A Marine is a Marine. I set that policy two weeks ago - there's no such thing as a former Marine. You're a Marine, just in a different uniform and you're in a different phase of your life. But you'll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico. There's no such thing as a former Marine."

The Commandant of the Marine Corps, General James F. Amos

Amos was an Air Winger. Hes not the most popular Commandant among grunts And I beg to differ with him as I am no longer a Marine I did my time