Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

A joint lock is harder to pull off correctly then a strike. I'd bet most average adults in relatively good shape are strong enough to break a collar bone. I don't need to break them in training to know I'm powerful enough to do it when I need to

I never said one was harder to pull off than another. I said they're different from each other, and the training methods surrounding both allow you to practice breaking a joint a bit more accurately than breaking someone's collar bone with a strike.

 

[TSDTexan]

I never said it was. I said that the idea that you have a punch that breaks the collarbone means little if you're not actually breaking collarbones when you practice it.

Hmm... I work with ceramics. I have done so since age 9.
I have also done horticulture and landscapping. As an adult who cleared land for profit.

In my life have butchered about 100 swine, 4000 cattle, countless whitertail and mule deer.
[I was a egg and vegetarian for almost decade after that.]

Human collarbones and bones in general are not really easy to break like ceramics. There is a lot of give that is unexpected.

A good comparison would be a wet or green sapling vs a dry annd seasoned one.

However a proper axe will break a collarbone. No doubt. Also a throw done to someone who doent know how to break their fall... collar break.

Now most folks cannot do a proper axe kick soo...

A jumping double knifehand strike following a stunning blow is high percentage for broken collar bones.

 

[Hanzou]

Is the best method for most people who compete in the ring the best method for all people in any context?

Well frankly yes. It might not appeal to you on a personal level, but its pretty obvious that boxing simply towers over other MAs in terms of punching.

Now will everyone head to a boxing gym to learn boxing? Probably not. However, if you're serious about learning how to punch and the body mechanics around punching, you're going to be in a boxing or MMA gym learning boxing.

 

[ballen0351]

I never said one was harder to pull off than another. I said they're diffeent from each other, and the training methods surrounding both allow you to practice breaking a joint a bit more accurately than breaking someone's collar bone with a strike.

I never said one was harder to pull off than another. I said they're different from each other, and the training methods surrounding both allow you to practice breaking a joint a bit more accurately than breaking someone's collar bone with a strike.

I never said one was harder to pull off than another. I said they're different from each other, and the training methods surrounding both allow you to practice breaking a joint a bit more accurately than breaking someone's collar bone with a strike.

Nope using your logic if your not shredding an elbow joint and breaking arms in training you obviously are not able to do it the real world.

 

[TSDTexan]

I agree with you 100% there.

Many years ago, one day I suddenly realized that the way I trained in my forms are different from the way that I hit on my heavy bag, and also different from the way that I sparred. After that day, not only I don't punch as the way that I trained in my forms, I gave up all my form training completely.

I like to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. I see no reason to treat my training and my sparring differently. Today, I only train those drills that I have created by myself.

Even if the "long fist" system is one of my major systems, IMO, if the

- MT roundhouse kick is more powerful than the long fist roundhouse kick, and
- boxing punches is more powerful than the long fist punches,

I see no reason to switch to better training methods.

On the other hand, I still think the Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling) "single leg" is much more effective than the western wrestling "single leg". So I'm not an anti-TMA person after all. I just like to keep the best material whether it may come from my major systems, or it may come from elsewhere.

There is a phrase in Japanese that conveys an important strategy in Okinawa Karate:

“Suemono ni sh-ite utsu or if you prefer (据え物にして打つ)”.

This phrase means to strike your opponent after forcing him into an awkward position.

When you force your opponent into an awkward position, it gives you several important advantages during a confrontation:
(1) break your opponent’s balance so that he cannot effectively counter-attack,
(2) increase your chances of striking him,
(3) allow you to throw or grapple him.

So, how can you get an opponent into an awkward position?

Well lucky for us someone usually worked this out already in each respective Karate tradition, and is generally comprised of two components.

The first is tenshin (転身) – turning / moving the body which teaches the mechanics of HOW to move.

The second part is kata which teaches the circumstances and principles of WHEN to move.

To apply this concept then, it is just a matter of looking into both of them deeply and practicing them diligently.

A Kata is more then just a series or sequence of actions attacks and blocks... that is done differently in the form than in real life.

Have you looked at your forns from new position like that?

 

[TSDTexan]

I know they are. The point is that the training methods surrounding the Okinawan and Japanese karate systems are inefficient compared to western boxing. Which is why modern combat sports adopted western boxing OVER the Asian systems. That was the case even in Asia itself.

Why? Because western boxing simply had the better method. Heck, we just had a discussion where a punch you practice in karate over and over again for years is effectively the wrong way to punch. That's an inefficient method of training.



You broke someone's collarbone with a punch that you practiced? Interesting.



A joint lock is different than a strike.



Because unlike Bjj, it's not something that I do on a regular basis.

Tell that to this boxer

He received a beat down by an okinaiwan karateka. This same Oki beat the All Japan Boxing Champ "Piston" Horiguchi

This puts a damper on your notion that Western Boxing is more efficient in method. In reality boxing has a good toolset.

However a boxer does not have the tool set of a karateka.

A really well trained full contact Karateka from say Mas Oyama's tradition who has really studied and conditioned himself is going to work ranges and shut a boxer down

 

[Hanzou]

Tell that to this boxer
View attachment 19505

He received a beat down by an okinaiwan karateka. This same Oki beat the All Japan Boxing Champ "Piston" Horiguchi

This puts a damper on your notion that Western Boxing is more efficient in method.

Not really, since boxing has changed considerably in the 90-100 years since those events took place.

Okinawan Karate? Not so much.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Have you looked at your forns from new position like that?

The forms may record what the form creator wanted to do several hundreds years ago. It may not suggest what I want to do today.

 

[drop bear]

OK. So we are on some collar bone breaking strike vs boring old punches in the head.

Boring old punches in the head break jaws and knock people out through 16 oz of padding in the ring. And kill people in the street. Which to me seems pretty efficient if you are that way inclined.

I am not sure there is a rule against collarbone strikes at least in mma.

 

[elder999]

I am not sure there is a rule against collarbone strikes at least in mma.

Collarbone strikes are prohibited in the UFC, and most other MMA contests.......
.....'cause, you know, the fight is over, and that guy's not gonna be fighting for months...

EDIT: Actually, grabbing the clavicle is illegal....doesn't look like striking it is....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Did your teacher tell you the importance of kata and the real fight applications of the techniques?

This quote should answer your question:

So just to clarify; If kata aren't a means to learn technique or mechanics, why are you practicing them?

Exercise? Dancing?

 

[RTKDCMB]

The kata/traditional version of the reverse punch will get you killed in a fist fight because it leaves your face wide open.

Which is why it is not used that way in a real fight.

 

[Hanzou]

Which is why it is not used that way in a real fight.

Yet it's trained that way throughout the learning process.

We might as well include the blocking techniques as well. Completely impractical, and I honestly have never seen them used in a fighting context.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm looking at these possibilities.
1. He missed practice the day instructor went over this.
2. He didn't take shotokan karateka long enough to hear this explaination
3. His instructor didn't bring this topic up so that the student could understand why they were doing kata.
4. His instructor doesn't know the importance so the topic never came up.
5. McDojo.

These aren't a slam on him, but somewhere down the line the purpose of kata wasn't explained. In my school we often reinforce the importance of form when we see students get slack and sloppy when practicing forms. Thanks to the kids that we have practicing with their parents, we usually explain this at least 3 times a months lol.

I've made no qualms about saying that my karate training was largely a waste of time. Eight years that I wish I had spent learning something a bit more practical. Muay Thai, Savate, Sanda, etc. would have frankly been better choices in the long run. Heck, if the goal was to end up fighting like a kick boxer, it would have been better to just learn kickboxing.

No kata necessary.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Heck, if the goal was to end up fighting like a kick boxer, it would have been better to just learn kickboxing.

If your karate looks like kickboxing during sparring then you aren't doing karate. This isn't because karate isn't practical. It's because you aren't doing karate.

If you learn to use karate techniques during sparring then your sparring will eventually start to look like karate. When you get good at it, it begins to look like this.

 

[RTKDCMB]

We might as well include the blocking techniques as well. Completely impractical, and I honestly have never seen them used in a fighting context.

Blocking techniques, when performed properly,are key to a good defense. And yes i have known people who have used them in self defense situations and have used them successfully myself and they are pretty damned practical.

 

[TSDTexan]

If your karate looks like kickboxing during sparring then you aren't doing karate. This isn't because karate isn't practical. It's because you aren't doing karate.

If you learn to use karate techniques during sparring then your sparring will eventually start to look like karate. When you get good at it, it begins to look like this.

Excellent kumite both the full contact tourney stuff and the dojo kumite. I see a lot of chambering on ribs and even hips in the fights.

 

[TSDTexan]

Blocking techniques, when performed properly,are key to a good defense. And yes i have known people who have used them in self defense situations and have used them successfully myself and they are pretty damned practical.

Mmmh.
I almost never do a hardblock.
The Japanese word that is translated block literally is Uke Which means "Receive".

The goal of blocking is to avoid or prevent a strike landing, or taking enough power out if the strike that when it lands it is rendered mostly harmless.

A better word than block would be "Deflection".

But Hanzou is trolling strikers now.
Even bjj teaches blocking as part of "punch defense".

As for not seeing them used in a fighting context... Hanzou has ignored western boxing.

And K1 full contact. Andy Hug did lots of blocking.
And then Muy Thai... lots of blocking in those fights.

If he has meant just Karate arts... just how many karateka has he seen in fights both street and tourney?

He hasnt said. But I think he speaks from ignorance. No offense meant towards him. Blocking is the second most practical defensive act a karateka can do.

And you can turn blocks into offense while blocking. A common block against a roundhouse kick is a elbow spike to the shin.

I was a wee yellow belt with lots of roundhouse kicks when a blackbelt shut all of my offense down and beat me up using blocking. Only.

I am starting to get the feeling that he playfully is pushing buttons to get a rise out of folks.

I will stop feeding the troll.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Only if you sparred all three at the same time.......we did

Nah!..I didn't do that until about 1991/92, but by then I had added Long Fist, Taiji, and a little Xingyi . Got the coolest beating I ever got from a Southern Mantis guy who was also an ex-marine.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Interesting thing - if you do a Google image search for "boxing knockouts" or "MMA knockouts" you find a ton of examples where the non-punching hand is down, dare we say "chambered" by the lower ribs or even all the way down by the hip. This isn't just amateurs - you'll see it from top professionals.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Boxers and karateka may learn the rear cross/reverse punch somewhat differently in their idealized training forms, but once they get into a real fight they start looking pretty much the same.