Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

Karateka dont learn the technique or mechanics through kata, theyre a means of practice. Theyre taught the practical technique too.

Theres a reason karateka still spar (using reverse punches, not the kata version), do bag work, etc.

You should know this

I don't know how far he got as a shotokan karateka.
Nor do I know what kinda of instruction he received.

But yes... if the instructor was competent... yes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I used to train in Shotokan, and I currently train Bjj.

Did your teacher tell you the importance of kata and the real fight applications of the techniques?

 

[Hanzou]

Karateka dont learn the technique or mechanics through kata, theyre a means of practice. Theyre taught the practical technique too.

Theres a reason karateka still spar (using reverse punches, not the kata version), do bag work, etc.

You should know this

So just to clarify; If kata aren't a means to learn technique or mechanics, why are you practicing them?

Exercise? Dancing?

 

[Drose427]

Looks different.



Really? So what other strikes from kata and practice aren't for sparring or application?

You realize the top picture is from a hapkido question discussing the reverse punch?

Elements of a good reverse punch

and the bottom is forms demonstration?

A user even posted a video of reverse punches being used in sparring and you can find tournament introducitons that go over what constitutes a reverse punch as well as an entire thread on it.

It isnt the waist chamber or front stance...

We've been over this a million times now, you're simply ignoring the fact

Again, a sparring punch or punch in application isnt going to look like kata nor is it meant to, you should know this as a karateka.


anddddd again, youre misconstruing what i said.

I never said a strike or technique wasnt for sparring,

but theyre done very differently in forms for a few different reasons, one of the biggest is physical conditioning(why modern styles have deep stances)

 

[Drose427]

So just to clarify; If kata aren't a means to learn technique or mechanics, why are you practicing them?

Exercise? Dancing?

Conditioning, waist, focus, etc.

any of the millions of reasons youve been given in the past

 

[Hanzou]

Learning boxing mechanics is easier. Martial arts is more complex so you can't train someone how to do kung fu the same way that a person is trained to do boxing.

Learning boxing mechanics is easier= Boxing is a more efficient method of learning how to punch.

Who has the most efficient punch? It all depends on what punch you are talking about. Some martial arts punches are more efficient than boxer punches because they target certain areas of the head. Targeted punches means hitting with different parts of your fist for the purpose of maximizing damage to the opponent. In martial arts there are punches that are designed to break the collar bone of a person. Boxing doesn't have a punch that does this.

They can be designed to do whatever. If you're not actually breaking your partner's collarbone in practice with your collarbone breaking punch, that argument is pretty irrelevant.

 

[Drose427]

I don't know how far he got as a shotokan karateka.
Nor do I know what kinda of instruction he received.

But yes... if the instructor was competent... yes.

I believe he was a shodan,

but I'll leave him to to clarify anything

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know how far he got as a shotokan karateka.
Nor do I know what kinda of instruction he received.

But yes... if the instructor was competent... yes.

I'm looking at these possibilities.
1. He missed practice the day instructor went over this.
2. He didn't take shotokan karateka long enough to hear this explaination
3. His instructor didn't bring this topic up so that the student could understand why they were doing kata.
4. His instructor doesn't know the importance so the topic never came up.
5. McDojo.

These aren't a slam on him, but somewhere down the line the purpose of kata wasn't explained. In my school we often reinforce the importance of form when we see students get slack and sloppy when practicing forms. Thanks to the kids that we have practicing with their parents, we usually explain this at least 3 times a months lol.

 

[Argus]

You realize the top picture is from a hapkido question discussing the reverse punch?

Elements of a good reverse punch

and the bottom is forms demonstration?

A user even posted a video of reverse punches being used in sparring and you can find tournament introducitons that go over what constitutes a reverse punch as well as an entire thread on it.

It isnt the waist chamber or front stance...

We've been over this a million times now, you're simply ignoring the fact

Again, a sparring punch or punch in application isnt going to look like kata nor is it meant to, you should know this as a karateka.


anddddd again, youre misconstruing what i said.

I never said a strike or technique wasnt for sparring,

but theyre done very differently in forms for a few different reasons, one of the biggest is physical conditioning(why modern styles have deep stances)

Have you ever considered that, in the forms, you might, for instance, be practicing "punching from wherever the hand is"?
If your hands happen to be down, as they often will be if suddenly confronted by an attacker in a self defense context and unprepared, having trained how to punch via the most direct and efficient line from your hand down at your side is a useful skill.

Of course, then, in the style I practice, we usually punch from the hands chambered near the breast, much higher. This is likely for a couple of reasons specific to our particular style and the concepts and principles on which it is based. But in application, we don't do that -- I mean, not unless the hand happens to, for some reason, be there. And there are, furthermore, instances in all of our forms in which punches happen from an unchambered position.

So, I agree that application needn't look like the form. But then, the question arises of "why do we do it in the form, then?" Usually, there's a reason, and it's worth knowing / exploring.

 

[Drose427]

I'm looking at these possibilities.
1. He missed practice the day instructor went over this.
2. He didn't take shotokan karateka long enough to hear this explaination
3. His instructor didn't bring this topic up so that the student could understand why they were doing kata.
4. His instructor doesn't know the importance so the topic never came up.
5. McDojo.

These aren't a slam on him, but somewhere down the line the purpose of kata wasn't explained. In my school we often reinforce the importance of form when we see students get slack and sloppy when practicing forms. Thanks to the kids that we have practicing with their parents, we usually explain this at least 3 times a months lol.

I always bring up this point:

Theres a reason most 2 hour classes spend only 30-40 minutes on forms

and theres a reason in their memoirs the old masters explained how much they used to fight

Ive never seen someone so vehemently believe we are going around treating forms as the be all end all of training

 

[TSDTexan]

So just to clarify; If kata aren't a means to learn technique or mechanics, why are you practicing them?

Exercise? Dancing?

Kata is Karate, Karate is Kata.
But you probably were never told what that old saying means.

It is a repository of the whole art. The Karate of Tomari-Te... had only 4 Kata. This is a very Simple Art. Out of Kata you gain the Kihon. Out of Kata you unpack the bunkai.

If you dont know the meaning of Kata you really know nothing about the Karate.

Gitchen Funakoshi said he brought 15 kata. That that could be memorized correctly in about 5 years.

However it takes a very long time to master all that the Kata contains.

 

[TSDTexan]

Have you ever considered that, in the forms, you might, for instance, be practicing "punching from wherever the hand is"?
If your hands happen to be down, as they often will be if suddenly confronted by an attacker in a self defense context and unprepared, having trained how to punch via the most direct and efficient line from your hand down at your side is a useful skill.

Of course, then, in the style I practice, we usually punch from the hands chambered near the breast, much higher. This is likely for a couple of reasons specific to our particular style and the concepts and principles on which it is based. But in application, we don't do that -- I mean, not unless the hand happens to, for some reason, be there. And there are, furthermore, instances in all of our forms in which punches happen from an unchambered position.

So, I agree that application needn't look like the form. But then, the question arises of "why do we do it in the form, then?" Usually, there's a reason, and it's worth knowing / exploring.

This is one place Choki chambered.

Here is one of Gitchen Funakoshi's teachers... notice his chamber...

Motobu Choki also does the same chamber as this one.

 

[Hanzou]

You realize the top picture is from a hapkido question discussing the reverse punch?

Elements of a good reverse punch

Its also from a youth karate website that says that its a cross punch;

White Belt

and the bottom is forms demonstration?

And the point was that there's a very clear difference in hand placement and stance.

A user even posted a video of reverse punches being used in sparring and you can find tournament introducitons that go over what constitutes a reverse punch as well as an entire thread on it.

It isnt the waist chamber or front stance...

We've been over this a million times now, you're simply ignoring the fact

Ignoring the fact that there's two entirely different techniques called the same thing?

 

[Drose427]

Its also from a youth karate website that says that its a cross punch;

White Belt



And the point was that there's a very clear difference in hand placement and stance.



Ignoring the fact that there's two entirely different techniques called the same thing?

A sparring roundhouse is different from a breaking roundhouse but their both roundhouses?

An ezekiel choke is done very different in no gi but is still called an ezekiel?

A million judo throws are down different without a gi but are still called by their specific names? (uchi mata for instance)

The difference is the sparring form/application (which has nothing to do with specific hand placement or stance) or kata form.

The hand placement and stance are not what make the reverse punch, thats what you're ignoring so vehemently

Heck, some boxer drop their punching arm to their waist for an uppercut, guess thats not an uppercut then too

 

[Hanzou]

Did your teacher tell you the importance of kata and the real fight applications of the techniques?

He certainly told me that it was important. I personally don't believe there's any real fight applications within the techniques. You and Drose reinforced that belief during this exchange.

 

[TSDTexan]

Its also from a youth karate website that says that its a cross punch;

White Belt



And the point was that there's a very clear difference in hand placement and stance.



Ignoring the fact that there's two entirely different techniques called the same thing?

Ok... try citing something authoritative.
Like published works of system founders or fathers of the art.

 

[TSDTexan]

He certainly told me that it was important. I personally don't believe there's any real fight applications within the techniques. You and Drose reinforced that belief during this exchange.

"Break!"
Trolling one point Red!
Ready?
"Begin!"

 

[Argus]

This is one place Choki chambered.
View attachment 19502

Here is one of Gitchen Funakoshi's teachers... notice his chamber...

View attachment 19503

Motobu Choki also does the same chamber as this one.

Looks a lot like old fashioned bareknuckle boxing, before the use of gloves and rules prohibiting knees and such.

Fancy that! It's almost as if the demands of the context for which we train modifies how we apply our training.

Edit: and, yes, I'm aware that they're practicing with gloves.

 

[Hanzou]

A sparring roundhouse is different from a breaking roundhouse but their both roundhouses?

Because hitting a board is different than hitting a person.

An ezekiel choke is done very different in no gi but is still called an ezekiel?

A million judo throws are down different without a gi but are still called by their specific names? (uchi mata for instance)

You're forgetting that there's practical uses for the gi versions of the ezekiel choke and the gi version of uchi mata. You're taught two different versions because you may encounter someone wearing loose fitting clothes, or you may encounter someone wearing a t-shirt.

The kata/traditional version of the reverse punch will get you killed in a fist fight because it leaves your face wide open.

The difference is the sparring form/application (which has nothing to do with specific hand placement or stance) or kata form.

The hand placement and stance are not what make the reverse punch, thats what you're ignoring so vehemently

Heck, some boxer drop their punching arm to their waist for an uppercut, guess thats not an uppercut then too

Yeah, that's called a stylistic difference between boxers. We're talking about karateka being trained one way in kata, and then supposedly trained a different way in sparring.

 

[TSDTexan]

"Break!"
Trolling one point Red!
Ready?
"Begin!"

The "Te" of Choki was applied in street fights testing thoses things he learned in Kata. His very stances and combinations came from Kata.

When he returned from Jaoan to Okinaiwa He went to learn Kata from the one man who gave him a beat down.