Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

We've explained this movment too......

You arent yanking them from that far off..

Ya... He doesn't get that its not an aikido throw but a guard break/unbalancer.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So why is there a difference between a boxing straight and a reverse punch in kata and drilling?

Again, wouldn't the more efficient method be to simply teach the boxing straight?

A reverse punch can target anything from has high as the head to the waist. A boxing straight or cross cannot. The reverse punch requires power to be generated from the hips or waist depending on the fighting system. The closer the punch is to the body the easier it is learn how to connect the twisting of the waist to the punch. In addition "chicken wing" punches (punching with the elbow out) are bad in martial arts because there are techniques that will take advantage of that elbow sticking out. In a real fight someone may disguise a reverse punch by holding that hand low. In the video that I posted, I hid my reverse punch with another punch. Reverse punches can be used as Block-attack combination where the lead hand blocks or redirects an incoming punch and the reverse punch attacks through the opening that the lead hand created.

 

[TSDTexan]

Let's make sure we're talking about the same punch here;




That is a reverse punch.

You really shouldn't train a punch like that if the goal is to perform a straight/cross punch. You're talking about two entirely different punches. If your goal is to perform a straight/cross punch, train the straight/cross punch.



Didn't you also say that your master saved you from six"ninjas" who attacked you in a parking lot?

First video makes my eyes hurt.
A. That is a push... not a punch.
B. He is far too away from his target.

 

[Hanzou]

Was your fist chambered like the lady's picture below? Or did you throw a punch from the hip like the video below? To me the definition of a chambered fist is like how the lady is holding her fist next to the body. Punching from a chambered fist helps the student learn correct punching form and how to correctly generate power for punches. To fight with a fist chambered like that is dangerous. It might be something you can get away with if you throw the first punch but you'll need that hand to help with defense once kicks and punches start flying.]

How can it be proper punching form if you're never supposed to punch while in that form? Isn't that an inherent contradiction, and a waste of training time? Wouldn't proper punching form be the actual form you take when you're punching something?

It doesn't help that this punch (you're never supposed to use) is reinforced in several kata.

 

[TSDTexan]

Hanzou...
The Way of Least Resistance: Karate punches vs. boxing punches

 

[TSDTexan]

How can it be proper punching form if you're never supposed to punch while in that form? Isn't that an inherent contradiction, and a waste of training time? Wouldn't proper punching form be the actual form you take when you're punching something?

It doesn't help that this punch (you're never supposed to use) is reinforced in several kata.

You are missing it.
Learning the mechanics is the point of the form.
Using the mechanics is the art.
Many can do the form and have not learned the mechanics of it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Here is Motobu Choki...(he was well noted for high chambers) showing where a reverse punch to the body ends at full extention. However the target is the rib/armpit/pressure point... with retraction upon impact instead of pushing into full extension.

Japanese Karate i.e. Shotokan style approaches combat from a long distance range, Okinawan Karate or older Tou-Te prefers a shorter, closer, range.

 

[Drose427]

As well as the hand placement, and the entire stance.



Would that be because the traditional way was found to be ineffective I
While sparring?



Then why do it? We don't see boxers doing chambered reverse punches in order to learn how to do a straight. They simply practice the straight.

No the hand placement and stance arent different

A reverse punch as seen in kata is not a reverse punch in sparring or application......

hand placement and stance arent what make it a reverse punch youre ignoring that fact cause it doesnt fit your opinion even after an entire thread was started on it agreeing that what made the punch was the rotation and returning to starting position.


Its not about "traditional way" or not.

You keep living in this world where you think forms are supposed teach us to fight, and they arent.

Theres a reason the old masters still actually sparred.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How can it be proper punching form if you're never supposed to punch while in that form? Isn't that an inherent contradiction, and a waste of training time?

It doesn't help that this punch you're never supposed to use is reinforced in several kata.

Because proper punching and connecting the waist to a punch is not limited only to that punch. In my fighting system, the power of my jabs comes from my waist. I connect power the same way that I drive the chambered punch. I learned how to connect the power by first learning how to punch from a chambered fist. I'm assuming that's the only way to learn how to connect the power from the waist because so many martial arts styles practice with a chambered fist. You can tell that you aren't connecting the waist to a punch from a chambered position because the punch will be weak with question. But the moment the energy from the waist is connected to the punch, you will know without a doubt that the punch is strong.

Martial arts are more complex than boxing. The chambered fist doesn't just show how to connect power, it also helps students to learn multiple aspects of punching other than connecting power. The fact that this punch is reinforced in several kata, multiple kung fu forms, and across many fighting systems, is proof of its importance. Forms and Katas help to train correct movement and 20 other things all at once.

 

[Drose427]

Here is Motobu Choki...(he was well noted for high chambers) showing where a reverse punch to the body ends at full extention. However the target is the rib/armpit/pressure point... with retraction upon impact instead of pushing into full extension.
View attachment 19501
Japanese Karate i.e. Shotokan style approaches combat from a long distance range, Okinawan Karate or older Tou-Te prefers a shorter, closer, range.

Not to mention Funakoshi used deeper longer stances in shotokan for phsyical conditioning.....

Hanzou still thinks people are taught to fight that way....

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou...
The Way of Least Resistance: Karate punches vs. boxing punches

A whole lot of excuses as to why boxing has a superior punching method. However, the author is too stubborn to admit that so he uses a heap of illogic to try to say that both methods are equal.

Like so;

So why bother with karate punches?

All of this poses the inevitable question, why don’t karateka simply adopt boxer’s tactics? As I have foreshadowed, this is largely answered by examining goals/motivations.

As I stated in my article “Civilian defence systems”, arts like karate aren’t designed to "beat" an opponent or score a point. Your principal goal isn't to "land a knockout blow". Rather, you are trying to defend yourself. Yes, this might involve a "knockout blow" - but it might not. In the course of this defence, your counters will tend to be conservative precisely because you aren't focused on "winning" – you are focused on not being hurt. Yes, the former and latter might end up being the same thing, but to suggest that they always will is a gross oversimplification of civilian defence needs and responsibilities under the law.

That's just silly talk and double speak. Karate isn't meant to beat someone up, yet if you "defend yourself" by kicking someone in the head, and then punching them in the face when they try to get back up again, what are you doing? What if a boxer gets confronted by an assailant, dodges the assailant's punch and does a kidney shot, causing the guy to double over so that the boxer can escape? Isn't the boxer defending himself?

What's worse than that? Saying a punch isn't really a punch, but really a super secret grab instead of simply admitting that the reverse punch as traditionally trained was impractical. So instead of using the traditional reverse punch, they adopted the boxing straight punch. A more efficient and practical way of doing the reverse punch.

 

[Drose427]

A whole lot of excuses as to why boxing has a superior punching method. However, the author is too stubborn to admit that so he uses a heap of illogic to try to say that both methods are equal.

Like so;



That's just silly talk and double speak. Karate isn't meant to beat someone up, yet if you "defend yourself" by kicking someone in the head, and then punching them in the face when they try to get back up again, what are you doing? What if a boxer gets confronted by an assailant, dodges the assailant's punch and does a kidney shot, causing the guy to double over so that the boxer can escape? Isn't the boxer defending himself?

What's worse than that? Saying a punch isn't really a punch, but really a super secret grab instead of simply admitting that the reverse punch as traditionally trained was impractical. So instead of using the traditional reverse punch, they adopted the boxing straight punch. A more efficient and practical way of doing the reverse punch.

Dude.......

The article is talking about beating someone in a competitive environment....

not "beating someone up"....

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hanzou.. what martial arts do you train in?

 

[Hanzou]

You are missing it.
Learning the mechanics is the point of the form.
Using the mechanics is the art.
Many can do the form and have not learned the mechanics of it.

And yet boxers learn the mechanics of the straight the exact same way they're supposed to use the straight.

So which method is more efficient? Teaching someone an exaggerated and elongated method that in practice is completely incorrect, or simply teaching them the correct method that in practice is correct?

Dude.......

The article is talking about beating someone in a competitive environment....

not "beating someone up"....

Which is even worse, because there are karate schools focused on competition, and there's boxing schools for self defense.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou.. what martial arts do you train in?

I used to train in Shotokan, and I currently train Bjj.

 

[Drose427]

And yet boxers learn the mechanics of the straight the exact same way they're supposed to use the straight.

So which method is more efficient? Teaching someone an exaggerated and elongated method that in practice is completely incorrect, or simply teaching them the correct method that in practice is correct?



Which it even worse, because there are karate schools focused on competition, and there's boxing schools for self defense.

Karateka dont learn the technique or mechanics through kata, theyre a means of practice. Theyre taught the practical technique too.

Theres a reason karateka still spar (using reverse punches, not the kata version), do bag work, etc.

You should know this

 

[Drose427]

And yet boxers learn the mechanics of the straight the exact same way they're supposed to use the straight.

So which method is more efficient? Teaching someone an exaggerated and elongated method that in practice is completely incorrect, or simply teaching them the correct method that in practice is correct?



Which is even worse, because there are karate schools focused on competition, and there's boxing schools for self defense.

The article is going over tradtional Karate styles, which arent based around competition

 

[JowGaWolf]

So which method is more efficient? Teaching someone an exaggerated and elongated method that in practice is completely incorrect, or simply teaching them the correct method that in practice is correct?

Learning boxing mechanics is easier. Martial arts is more complex so you can't train someone how to do kung fu the same way that a person is trained to do boxing. Who has the most efficient punch? It all depends on what punch you are talking about. Some martial arts punches are more efficient than boxer punches because they target certain areas of the head. Targeted punches means hitting with different parts of your fist for the purpose of maximizing damage to the opponent. In martial arts there are punches that are designed to break the collar bone of a person. Boxing doesn't have a punch that does this.

 

[Hanzou]

No the hand placement and stance aren't different

Looks different.

A reverse punch as seen in kata is not a reverse punch in sparring or application......

Really? So what other strikes from kata and practice aren't for sparring or application?

 

[Drose427]

Learning boxing mechanics is easier. Martial arts is more complex so you can't train someone how to do kung fu the same way that a person is trained to do boxing. Who has the most efficient punch? It all depends on what punch you are talking about. Some martial arts punches are more efficient than boxer punches because they target certain areas of the head. Targeted punches means hitting with different parts of your fist for the purpose of maximizing damage to the opponent. In martial arts there are punches that are designed to break the collar bone of a person. Boxing doesn't have a punch that does this.

Without delving into that,

lets keep in mind the punch in question is a reverse punch, which is only different from a boxers straight right because of the timing of the rotation