Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Steve]

Steve... Don't be a wet blanket on a lively feed Bro.

Every one has a voice to speak on the subjects.

What? I don't understand what you're saying.


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[Tony Dismukes]

Steve... Don't be a wet blanket on a lively feed Bro.

Every one has a voice to speak on the subjects.

What? I don't understand what you're saying.

He's saying don't spoil a perfectly good argument with all this voice-of-reason, can't we all get along business.

Seriously, Steve, it's almost as if you don't want to watch everybody get into a big food fight.

 

[Steve]

I'm a libra. What can I say?


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[drop bear]

But does anyone really disagree with the idea here? After how many pages, it still seems like we all agree with the idea that there is bad training. And we all seem to mostly agree with what constitutes bad training.

The sticking point seems to be a matter of ratio. Contact and pressure testing are essential. how much is the minimum? How is the student's skill level tested to ensure proficiency?

Some styles seem to pressure test less often. And those styles get picked on a little. But inevitably, the people who defend these styles don't argue against pressure testing or contact. They instead allege to be among the minority who train with contact.

Hopefully this makes sense. I'm typing on a phone, so please forgive odd spellings.

It would make sense. I am not sure it is always presented that way. I think for those that don't pressure test there has been a wall of excuses built up to defend that.

And we wind up with dudes like Steven segal thinking they are actually teaching Anderson Silva to kick.

 

[drop bear]

Joe could simply say he prefers training in a system with "alive practice" and that is his preference rather than bagging on all the styles he does. In the end, in this situation he comes across as a jerk!

Well as much as we like to say let's treat all styles with respect. I remember a poster here who made his own style up with advice from his street fighting mate.

And I wonder how many people posted that they totally respect that rather than advise he does a real martial art. Like a duchebag.

 

[TSDTexan]

It would make sense. I am not sure it is always presented that way. I think for those that don't pressure test there has been a wall of excuses built up to defend that.

And we wind up with dudes like Steven segal thinking they are actually teaching Anderson Silva to kick.

In fairness to Steven... he did help "refine" a technique that Silva already new.

 

[drop bear]

In fairness to Steven... he did help "refine" a technique that Silva already new.

Look it up on the Internets. It was a publicity stunt. In fact look up Steven segals shenanigans in general. He is probably not the guy you want flagshipling akido.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Who has Steven segal fought again? I forget.

Who has tried?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Look it up on the Internets. It was a publicity stunt. In fact look up Steven segals shenanigans in general. He is probably not the guy you want flagshipling akido.

By all accounts, Seagal is a complete *******. However I train BJJ, so I'm not in a position to comment on disreputable representatives of other arts. Seagal may be a self-promoting, sexually-harassing, bullying douchebag, but at least he's not Helio Gracie.

 

[elder999]

By all accounts, Seagal is a complete *******. However I train BJJ, so I'm not in a position to comment on disreputable representatives of other arts. Seagal may be a self-promoting, sexually-harassing, bullying douchebag, but at least he's not Helio Gracie.

There's mixed messages throughout his career-while I wouldn't want him anywhere near my daughter, he also has a reputation for generosity. While he's known to burn bridges with people who've been with him for years, he also has a reputation for being surprisingly warm and approachable. And, while he was known for treating stuntmen like he treats his uke (really hard), I know stunt-people who have worked with him on some of his last few direct-to-DVD productions, and they had nothing but good things to say about him.

His aikido, though, was impeccable, years ago-don't know about now......

Not really the kind of guy I'd recommend training with-he sounds to be alternately charming and intelligent, sometimes creepy and bullying, other times saintly and generous, secretive and frank, honest and deceptive .

In other words, a sociopath

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There's mixed messages throughout his career-while I wouldn't want him anywhere near my daughter, he also has a reputation for generosity. While he's known to burn bridges with people who've been with him for years, he also has a reputation for being surprisingly warm and approachable. And, while he was known for treating stuntmen like he treats his uke (really hard), I know stunt-people who have worked with him on some of his last few direct-to-DVD productions, and they had nothing but good things to say about him.

His aikido, though, was impeccable, years ago-don't know about now......

Not really the kind of guy I'd recommend training with-he sounds to be alternately charming and intelligent, sometimes creepy and bullying, other times saintly and generous, secretive and frank, honest and deceptive .

In other words, a sociopath

So what you're saying is ... in a different time and place, he could have been Helio Gracie?

 

[renc]

It's not quite a false generalization is no one's stepped up to prove their accusations false.

There are reasonable criticisms to be made of how 'traditional' martial arts are sometimes trained.
Tony Dismukes' theory of how 'no touch' may evolve from training methods is thoughtful, plausible and does not over-generalize.
ShotoNoob's criticisms are the sharpest this thread has seen.
Those are good examples of how to think and talk about martial arts.
These are not.
The claim by Rogan has been proven false in this thread:

When you start sparring, that's when techniques really get weeded out, and that's when you understand what is the most effective use of energy and force, what techniques work the best, what techniques are applicable and what techniques are really kinda frivolous and what techniques are a waste of time and there's better alternatives. Well, Kung Fu never did that, they didn't have all the sparring."

And the claim by Gregoriades doesn't pass the smell test:

If you look at some of those more ridiculous martial arts [...] without fail, every single 45 year old plus traditional martial artist is the one who's got a slouch and a beer belly and you can see he hasn't done a pushup for like fifteen years

I train with at least eight traditional martial artists whom are over the age of 45, none of whom remotely fit the above description. Equivocating over nonsense is not worthwhile.

As Zack Cart noted, 'bashing' is not a scientific approach it is political.
Worse than political, the claims are stupid. They are simply not good criticisms.

 

[elder999]

So what you're saying is ... in a different time and place, he could have been Helio Gracie?

....or a Tibetan Buddhist saint......or a "good" actor.....or a gifted blues musician....

(I understand the problems of being multi-talented, but, seriously?

)

Seriously, a little back story: Craig Dunn, sensei-of the Kihon Dojo, in Taos, NM-formerly a Tenshin AIkido Dojo, under Steven Seagal-is a friend of mine-he's a winemaker at La Chiripada Winery, in Dixon, and was an uchi-deshi to Seagal in Osaka, before the movies. He was also Seagal sensei's stunt double in a couple of earlier movies. I've been to a couple of Steven Seagal seminars at Craig's dojo, years ago. His aikido's no joke-it hurts, and Craig-and every other student of his I've met over the years-is pretty solid as well.

For the record, I've done "TMA" since I was 11. I'm over 55, don't slouch, and don't have a "pot-bellly."

Not much of one, anyway....

Of course, I was "MMA" before it was "MMA."......just sayin'

 

[Xue Sheng]

Of course, I was "MMA" before it was "MMA."......just sayin'

Does Japanese Jujutsu, TKD, with a dash of Kempo...pre 1983, count as MMA before it was MMA too

 

[elder999]

Does Japanese Jujutsu, TKD, with a dash of Kempo...pre 1983, count as MMA before it was MMA too

Only if you sparred all three at the same time.......we did

 

[Sub Zero]

It would make sense. I am not sure it is always presented that way. I think for those that don't pressure test there has been a wall of excuses built up to defend that.

And we wind up with dudes like Steven segal thinking they are actually teaching Anderson Silva to kick.

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute are you saying Segal didn't teach Silva everything he knows about fighting? Next thing you know you will be telling me pro-wrestling is fixed.

 

[Hanzou]

There are reasonable criticisms to be made of how 'traditional' martial arts are sometimes trained.
Tony Dismukes' theory of how 'no touch' may evolve from training methods is thoughtful, plausible and does not over-generalize.
ShotoNoob's criticisms are the sharpest this thread has seen.
Those are good examples of how to think and talk about martial arts.
These are not.
The claim by Rogan has been proven false in this thread:

Rogan wasn't saying that TMAs never spar. He said that TMAs don't push out "frivolous" techniques, or techniques that don't really work very well in favor of better techniques. That practice can result from a martial art that lacks sparring, a martial art that adheres too closely to its roots, or a combination of both.

Take for example traditional karate and kung fu hand techniques vs. modern boxing. It's a pretty rare thing to see someone throw a reverse punch while sparring. However, seeing Karateka and traditional Kung Fu practitioners fighting like amateur kick boxers is a very common thing.

And the claim by Gregoriades doesn't pass the smell test:

Well, that claim is a bit harder to substantiate, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Drose427]

Rogan wasn't saying that TMAs never spar. He said that TMAs don't push out "frivolous" techniques, or techniques that don't really work very well in favor of better techniques. That practice can result from a martial art that lacks sparring, a martial art that adheres too closely to its roots, or a combination of both.

Take for example traditional karate and kung fu hand techniques vs. modern boxing. It's a pretty rare thing to see someone throw a reverse punch while sparring. However, seeing Karateka and traditional Kung Fu practitioners fighting like amateur kick boxers is a very common thing.



Well, that claim is a bit harder to substantiate, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Reverse Punches are thrown all the time in sparring.....

 

[Hanzou]

Reverse Punches are thrown all the time in sparring.....

If you say so....

Keeping your hand chambered at the waist is a great way to get tagged in the face.

Which is why MMA and Sanda looked towards Muay Thai and Boxing.

 

[Drose427]

If you say so....

Keeping your hand chambered at the waist is a great way to get tagged in the face.

Thats not what defines a reverse punch in sparring.........