Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

That is not something that is done in my school but I am sure there are some that do it.If the founders participated in, and dominated NHB competitions in the past.then maybe they are too old for MMA competitions now.

Yeah, but wouldn't that competitive trait be passed on to the newer generation of practitioners? It's an odd conundrum where you have these legendary competitors from various TMA styles who are celebrated for their achievements in competitive fighting, then you have practitioners from those styles turn around and say that their art isn't made for competition.

 

[renc]

Those are competitive sport fights, not life or death fights. In life or death fights, someone isn't going to stop attacking you because of a nut shot. You may stun them for a second, but then they're going to come at you harder than before.

Not all self defense situations are viewed as life-or-death from the perspective of the aggressor, most probably aren't. Strikes to the groin can and have finished street fights. Other considerations are psychological, pain distracts and can demoralize. It depends on the particular aggressor and the particular context, which is why generalizations aren't useful.

You may stun them for a second, but then they're going to come at you harder than before.

A second is an aeon in standup. Enough time to land four or five strikes. One if you're slow.

I'm not saying that they're useless, what I'm saying is that you can't depend on a nut shot to stop a guy from trying to kill you.

You can't depend on any technique to stop someone. As you wrote, you gotta be flexible...

There's throws and takedowns in Bjj as well [...] you can end the fight with one of them. However, if you're not able to end the fight in that fashion [...] you can opt for

Only when discussing some arts you seem to revert to inflexible generalizations/rules...

Kicking someone in the nuts or poking someone in the eye just pisses people off.

And yes I'm male, and yes i've been hit in the nuts on a variety of occasions.

We got that much in common.

For giggles...

 

[JowGaWolf]

That isn't the purpose. View the video of throws I linked earlier. Many of those throws could disable someone as soon as they hit the concrete. The purpose is to protect yourself. Bjj gives you the ability to fight from the ground because you may have to fight from that range in a confrontation.

You keep telling me that BJJ isn't about the ground but everytime someone mentions BJJ. The first topic they talk about is ground fighting. For example, in your statement you say " Bjj gives you the ability to fight from the ground" No one take BJJ to learn how to fight off the ground.

 

[JowGaWolf]

JowGaWolf,

Thanks for promoting an interesting discussion on back-fists and providing references. Since Rogan made his comparison based on power, I was thinking of a vertical forearm, bent elbow type which is less powerful than an overhand right. Regarding comments about counters, the elbow is kept tucked in, perhaps a bit less protection than a jab where the shoulder covers the jaw.

Yeah, spinning back-fists on the other hand, different context different application. There's a lot of exposure and power, similar to a spinning side kick or spinning heel kick. So we train to look before releasing, and it comes down to observation and timing as with most everything.

You are correct. "Look before releasing and it comes down to observation and timing as with most everything" This is a very true and honest statement and the only way to really learn these things is through sparring. Today in class we did a "non-hitting" sparring exercise to help make the the students more are of movement. Being able to observe is key. The video that I put up showing me failing at a trap is a perfect example of observation. In the video, I realized that my trap had fail and by observation, I stopped my plan A instead of trying to continue with some kind of hand attack.

 

[Hanzou]

You keep telling me that BJJ isn't about the ground but everytime someone mentions BJJ. The first topic they talk about is ground fighting. For example, in your statement you say " Bjj gives you the ability to fight from the ground" No one take BJJ to learn how to fight off the ground.

I never said that Bjj isn't about ground fighting, I said that everything we do doesn't have the sole purpose of putting you on the ground and strangling you.

The reason so many people talk about Bjj ground fighting is because so many other arts ignore it completely.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What I find interesting are modern Kung Fu and TMA practitioners who shy away from things like MMA when many of their arts celebrate practitioners and founders who participated in, and dominated NHB competitions in the past.

It's quite an interesting development.

What I get tired of is some MMA fan telling a TMA practitioner to come to play at their house. If you want to go fight a TMA practitioner then go a TMA school and challenge them within their own school. If you don't want to do that then just go to a Lei Tai tournament and win it all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I never said that Bjj isn't about ground fighting, I said that everything we do doesn't have the sole purpose of putting you on the ground and strangling you.

If this is true then talk about the other aspects of BJJ that doesn't involve being on the ground. From now on, talk about the BJJ stand up game and tactics

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, but wouldn't that competitive trait be passed on to the newer generation of practitioners? It's an odd conundrum where you have these legendary competitors from various TMA styles who are celebrated for their achievements in competitive fighting, then you have practitioners from those styles turn around and say that their art isn't made for competition.

Jow Ga isn't made for competition, but it doesn't means nothing to me. I still want to and will use it to compete with. If I cause damage to my opponents joints or ligaments while doing Jow Ga then that's fine with me. I'm not saying that is my goal. I'm just saying if a Jow Ga technique causes it then I'm fine with my opponent having that injury. I rather be true to my style than for me to continue to hear people like Hanzou yap on about how useless TMA is even though MMA actually takes pieces of TMA techniques in use them in fighting.

If someone gets hurt because you use your TMA in a competition then just say Joe Rogan sent you.

 

[Hanzou]

Not all self defense situations are viewed as life-or-death from the perspective of the aggressor, most probably aren't. Strikes to the groin can and have finished street fights. Other considerations are psychological, pain distracts and can demoralize. It depends on the particular aggressor and the particular context, which is why generalizations aren't useful.

Considering that a person can kill you simply by knocking you to the ground, every SD situation should be seen as life or death until you get the situation under control.

A second is an aeon in standup. Enough time to land four or five strikes. One if you're slow.

That depends completely on the person striking, and the person getting struck. In that case above, the person doing the striking has a pretty significant size advantage over the person getting struck.

You can't depend on any technique to stop someone. As you wrote, you gotta be flexible...

Choke. No matter how strong you are, you need air.

 

[Hanzou]

If this is true then talk about the other aspects of BJJ that doesn't involve being on the ground. From now on, talk about the BJJ stand up game and tactics

Did you miss post #462?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Did you miss post #462?

Nope, I didn't miss it. All I saw was a video of throws and take downs. And this comment.
"However, if you're not able to end the fight in that fashion, or you don't want to seriously injury your opponent, you can opt for the ground option. The ground option is also in place in the event that the person you're trying to throw is better than you are at throwing."

You mentioned ground twice in this topic about BJJ. so what is your point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That depends completely on the person striking, and the person getting struck. In that case above, the person doing the striking has a pretty significant size advantage over the person getting struck.

I don't buy that size advantage mess. A bigger person just means I can't fight him the same way I fight a person my size. I actually find it easier to fight someone bigger or taller than be because then my advantages actually increased. A hit to the face is a hit to the face.

 

[Hanzou]

Nope, I didn't miss it. All I saw was a video of throws and take downs. And this comment.
"However, if you're not able to end the fight in that fashion, or you don't want to seriously injury your opponent, you can opt for the ground option. The ground option is also in place in the event that the person you're trying to throw is better than you are at throwing."

I said that if you don't want to throw them to the ground, you can choose to do a takedown instead. Throws can cripple or kill a person depending on how they land. You may not want to put your drunk uncle Into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that jiujitsu works.

On the other hand, you may be fighting against someone who is better at throws/takedowns than you are, and you're forced to fight from the ground. Again, knowing ground fighting is a good skill to have.

You mentioned ground twice in this topic about BJJ. so what is your point.

The point is that fighting on the ground is an option (and at times your best option), not the goal of everything we do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You may not want to put your drunk uncle Into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that jiujitsu works.

This statement is ironic because when a TMA practitioner says the same thing, then it's crap.. but when you say the exact same thing in reference to Jiujitsu then it's valid.

"You may not want to put your drunk uncle into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that jiujitsu works" Valid
"You may not want to put your drunk uncle into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that kung fu works" Not Valid

I'll make another sticker to go with my Joe Rogan sticker. Hanzou sent me.

 

[drop bear]

I like how they spend several minutes talking smack about other martial arts and then state how they have control over their egos.

Considering something as being terrible does not have to be ego driven.

It depends if you consider individuals schools or styles of training to be essentially equal. And from my experience they are not.

 

[drop bear]

A lot of smack talking. Pretty much, hey look at us we are the best, we are better than these other people. Yet, we are so humble.
That video is rather pathetic on their part. Now, I do agree with some things that were said just not in how they said it. I agree that people should not get a rank, title, etc. and not push themselves. That does happen and it is unfortunate. I also agree that people should be humble. Just practice, train, get better, help other people and live life. Your just a person even if you have been doing this a long time or have a title, etc.

Just train, get better and do your best to be a good person!

It is about training with honesty and not training with honesty. If I made myself a black belt and invented a style that was rubbish. Then ego or not you can have an opinion on that.

Smack talk isn't always ego driven. Smack talk is not taking yourself seriously. Especially not being able to take smack.

This you must respect my black belt in drop bear jitsu and I will treat your actually worked hard for legitimate black belt in the same manner? That is increadably ego driven.

If I am a crap full of rubbish martial artist then it dosent kill me to find out.

People who spar and test find that out constantly. It is not a curse. It is a gift.

We had a guy come in once and try to teach our boxing coach boxing. So the coach put him in the cage and beat him up.

Now this guy walked out all excuses,he was rusty,had a bad day and so on. And the coach had to sit him down and tell him he wasn't very good. This gives the guy two choices. He can not listen to the advice make excuses and remain not good. Or be humble realise he had been trained wrong and get good.

Many martial artists moving from a martial art without a solid foundation to one that does goes through that and makes that choice. It is not just a tma thing. But is often generalised as a tma thing.

So I will use this video of kicboxing.

They are not very good. That is not an ego issue on my part. They just are not. To say they need to go to a bjj school try that get flogged learn to be better is not my ego. That was just the way I learned.

That was the way Joe rogan learned

 

[drop bear]

Not all self defense situations are viewed as life-or-death from the perspective of the aggressor, most probably aren't. Strikes to the groin can and have finished street fights. Other considerations are psychological, pain distracts and can demoralize. It depends on the particular aggressor and the particular context, which is why generalizations aren't useful.

A second is an aeon in standup. Enough time to land four or five strikes. One if you're slow

I don't think that is Joe rogan theme though. You can throw nut shots.

But the shot isn't the focus. It is being good enough to fire any shot avoid their shot and then escape.

Bjj has this saying. Position before submissions. Because they fall into the same trap. It can be easy to think that the new super technical armbar you have learned will defeat his arm bar. But you have to set it up. That is where the magic is.

Martial artists who talk about the strike and not the set up and escape don't understand the technique.

 

[Hanzou]

This statement is ironic because when a TMA practitioner says the same thing, then it's crap.. but when you say the exact same thing in reference to Jiujitsu then it's valid.

"You may not want to put your drunk uncle into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that jiujitsu works" Valid
"You may not want to put your drunk uncle into a wheelchair for the rest of his life just because you wanted to show him that kung fu works" Not Valid

I'll make another sticker to go with my Joe Rogan sticker. Hanzou sent me.

I really don't know what any of that has to do with Kung Fu. The topic of our little back and forth was Bjj beyond ground fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I really don't know what any of that has to do with Kung Fu. The topic of our little back and forth was Bjj beyond ground fighting.

BJJ beyond ground fighting is your topic. I already know the deal about BJJ and it's focus. If you want to prove that BJJ has a stand up game then that's for you to prove. Showing me a demo video of BJJ practitioners doing throws doesn't mean squat to me when the UFC matches with BJJ guys makes it clear what the focus of BJJ is.

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ beyond ground fighting is your topic. I already know the deal about BJJ and it's focus. If you want to prove that BJJ has a stand up game then that's for you to prove. Showing me a demo video of BJJ practitioners doing throws doesn't mean squat to me when the UFC matches with BJJ guys makes it clear what the focus of BJJ is.

Getting thrown onto a canvas is different than getting thrown onto concrete.

Just saying....