Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Tez3]

Krav?

Good grief. Even the kids don't do that when they are sparring and they are funny to watch when they first start out. They face each other and politely take it in turns to punch or kick each other, quite sweet but you can only get away with that when you are a seven year old white belt.

 

[drop bear]

I don't disagree - faint low-backfist high is a technique I use probably too much.....yet it keeps landing.

If you throw it right off the bat then there are risks...but if you throw a baclhand hook straight from guard then unless you've timed it well, you're going to be lucky not to get a knee or a roundhouse into that open side

There are no right hooks in boxing.

(Sort of)
The right hook? - Boxing Forum

 

[drop bear]

Good grief. Even the kids don't do that when they are sparring and they are funny to watch when they first start out. They face each other and politely take it in turns to punch or kick each other, quite sweet but you can only get away with that when you are a seven year old white belt.

It was a quick demo to explain my point so I didn't have to keep using insert left hand A into block B. Which was doing my head in.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for the video. I can't speak for anyone else but I definitely dont throw a backfist like that. Whoever made the video, don't jab after blocking that backfist, Just step forward and throw a hook either to the head or ribs. That step forward would put you at a better angle to generate strength for a punch.

For people who throw backfists, put this in your library of how not to throw a backfist.

OK. I am saying you give up control to one whole side of your body. Cutting an angle won't really help

 

[RTKDCMB]

Anyway. Mabye this will work.

VID 20150904 184950

It worked, thanks. I can now see where your misconception lies (although it wasn't the one I thought it was). Your arm (I am assuming that is you, correct me if I am wrong) is too straight. The only time your arm should be that straight would be if you are doing a lunging motion and it would have less power. The following video I just uploaded shows the correct hand position, where the arm is roughly bent 90 degrees as in the block of the first movement.:

You would be more vulnerable to counter attack with your arm straight like that as a punch than you would be with your arm bent properly for a back fist. With the arm bent that back fist easily becomes the block I mentioned to block that first punch that was thrown. Also because my nonstriking hand (left in this case) will be in a guard position I can also block using an inward palm block over my right shoulder. Although my ribs would still be exposed I can easily drop my elbow to cover up or leave my nonstriking hand in the guarding position. and use a low section block (with my elbow staying stationary and pivoting my forearm down) Also trying to block with your arm on your head like that and that back fist will go right through that but with slightly less impact.

So yeah it does make a difference how the back fist is performed.

 

[Tez3]

We don't stand back and throw a backfist that way either, and no I can't explain as I explained before why I can't explain.

 

[drop bear]

We don't stand back and throw a backfist that way either, and no I can't explain as I explained before why I can't explain.

Well then. Your turn to do a video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Until i started reading this thread I have never heard anyone say that.

Sorry about being clearer. The spinning backfist is known to be hard, but the one that snaps back is the one that people assume will have no power. If you look at how some instructors teach it, then it's clear to see that there's no power in it. When you look at the movies, people like Jackie Chan or Jet Li will do a backfist that is more like a fast strike with a pop. And that's where the assumption comes from.

The article suggests that the back fist in MMA is undeveloped.just like the front snap kick was until a few years ago.

It may have been undeveloped in MMA but in traditional martial arts the back fist and snap kick and the heel kick have always been developed. What people are seeing in MMA are fighters using traditional martial art strikes in a real fight situation. This is something that TMA schools should have been doing instead of the point sparring that is so common. Traditional Martial art schools will demo you to death and they make the martial art style look like Hollywood martial arts. When this happens the student is neglecting the training that involves real fight sparring and real martial art fight application. When you find a Traditional Martial Art school that focuses on real fight application then the students will see first hand that the front kicks, snap kicks and the techniques in general are well developed. MMA also has the "spotlight" so anything that works there is almost always considered "new development." When in reality it's just the fighter learning how to apply a TMA technique.

Personally I have never found the instructor in the first back fist video to be particularly impressive. The back fist video second video basicall shows a jabbing version of the back fist, which still requires more hip involvement that was shown there. There was very little power shown in either video.

Sorry I couldn't have done better with the backfist videos, It's hard to find good backfist videos. Most of the backfist videos I found were stupid walk-through demos, which I really hate. I never understood why they don't throw a serious backfist first and then do a walk through. Show the actual technique in practice and then give the walk-through. Now I'm irritated lol. thanks TMA instructors.

I should have just made a video of me doing various types of backfists to show what it looks like when the body generates the power for a backfist vs a backfist that is powered only by the arms.

 

[Tez3]

Well then. Your turn to do a video.

Not on your Nellie! I am photophobic plus it's against the Official Secrets Act for me to be seen on video or photographs! And I'm too old

I'm far too vain to want to be seen on video, I'm still waiting with trepidation for my daughter's wedding photos and video, just know I'm going to hate me!

 

[JowGaWolf]

So who throws a backfist and stands there with his arm outstretched like that ?

This guy does lol

 

[JowGaWolf]

It was a quick demo to explain my point so I didn't have to keep using insert left hand A into block B. Which was doing my head in.

I appreciate the video. It was excellent in showing what you were talking about.

 

[Tez3]

This guy does lol

Good job the other guy is (h)armless!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good job the other guy is (h)armless!

Nice:
That guy is an hyper-extension accident waiting to happen. If I had to guess then I would say that he did hurt himself. When he's facing the camera he's got that messed up form that twists the power away from the fist. Then when he turns his back to the camera the movement used to throw the backfist is different than what he was doing before.

 

[TSDTexan]

It's called the Philtrum and it is not something you want to aim for when someone is sitting on top of you unless you want them bleeding all over you.



That is a bit like saying they have a punch but instead of striking with the fore knuckles they strike with the palm.

To be more precise... Just as some perform a kick... Striking the target with the bones of the instep... The point fighters strike with the metacarpus bones while keeping the wrist in line with knuckles all the way to the elbow..instead of the first knuckle joints striking with the wrist turned in.

 

[TSDTexan]

To be more precise... Just as some perform a kick... Striking the target with the bones of the instep... The point fighters strike with the metacarpus bones while keeping the wrist in line with knuckles all the way to the elbow..instead of the first knuckle joints striking with the wrist turned in.

 

[renc]

Based on the Sino-Japanese war, intensified western imperialism in the region after the boxer rebellion, the birth of nationalist and communist movements, the fall of the Qing dynasty, the westernization of Chinese society and its military, and China becoming a modern nationalist state.

Those statements of fact are not of themselves evidence that the nature of violence changed relative to the 1870s in a manner which would... encourage... the learning of ground fighting for self defense.

The period I'm interested in is the 1920s, not the 1870s.

... which is why I also gave you the book reference 'Sugong'.

Saying that your style doesn't have ground fighting because landing on the ground, and being on the ground is dangerous (yet the style in question has takedowns and throws where you end up on the ground anyway), is nonsense.

'Nonsense' is still an empty assertion.
Ending up on the ground does not imply continuing on the ground.

It is better to just say that ground fighting is outside your sport's rules.

Why is it better?

They don't make up excuses to try to say that ground fighting is an ineffective range of fighting.

'make up' implies fabricate. I don't think that is something you can easily demonstrate.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Your right side is completely open to attack. Every attack creates openings for a counter attack....

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Truer words were never spoken. This also speaks to why boxers are very vulnerable to disciplined karateka.... very.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Here's a video of me throwing a vertical backfist during sparring without my right side being open to attack
About the video: Watch it while you can. It won't be up for long....
[edit]
Martial Artist should be throwing combos and multiple attacks. Save the Bruce Lee one punch, one kick stuff for the movies. Throwing combinations keeps your opponent occupied and creates openings that otherwise wouldn't be there. Backfists are difficult to counter unless you see it coming. My backfist lands with no resistance from his guard.

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Ha, Ha.... the UFC wants you... needs you.... Especially Holly Holm... she's got just a couple months until death-by-Rousey.
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Enjoyed & appreciated your vid. Great demo... my concern is it's just that... Nice layout of the principles you aspire to. Particularly the strategic positioning & re-positioning.... and back fists, a staple of traditional karate, are way under-rated and way under-utilized... so bully for you....
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Point of disagreement. One-strike "kill" is viable. Multiple strike "kill" is viable. They are both legitimate. Different means to the same end.... I believe Joe Ro is with you on combos.... but it doesn't always play out that why in his sandbox. A single, strong counter often portends the end of MMA fights.... sometimes a single offensive shot does it....
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You have a demo vid that's packed with content & easy to watch & review....

 

[Hanzou]

'Nonsense' is still an empty assertion.
Ending up on the ground does not imply continuing on the ground.

Actually it does. If you end up on the ground you don't magically end up back on your feet again. You need the skill to get back to your feet quickly if the guy just knocked you down and didn't capitalize on your disadvantage. You need the skill to fight back if he knocked you down and decided to capitalize on your disadvantage.

Of course if you're properly trained, that disadvantage can quickly turn into an advantage.

To not train for either scenario is foolhardy.

Why is it better?

Because it's honest.

'make up' implies fabricate. I don't think that is something you can easily demonstrate.

Look at their reasoning again;

Ground fighting was never introduced at this time as they believed that most self defense situations are initiated from a standing position. Furthermore, being on the ground for long periods makes you more venerable to attack and the surface itself could present numerous dangers especially when falling. Therefore Sanshou was developed to avoid confrontation on the ground focusing on skills in striking, kicking, wrestling, throwing and takedowns as well as joint locking and seizing. The idea was to stay on your feet the most effective way possible.

1. Most self defense situation are initiated from standing position. Which means that you're simply screwed if someone decides to attack you from a non standing position.

2. Not learning ground fighting because of the "dangers of the surface" is nonsensical and a silly. If you get knocked to the ground you'll be privy to the dangers of said surface anyway.

3. Falling? That's why you learn how to break fall.

4. Staying on your feet the most effective way possible is by being able to fight back when you get knocked off your feet.

In the end, its pretty much every excuse you can think of to not learn ground fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ending up on the ground does not imply continuing on the ground

And this is the difference between Grappling fighting systems and non-grappling fighting systems. Grappling fighting systems focus on fighting on the ground not on the feet. Many Traditional Martial Arts are focused on fighting on their feet and not the ground. This doesn't mean that Grappling fighting systems don't have striking or that some Traditional Martial Arts, for example kung fu, doesn't have grappling. It's just that one system is about fighting on the ground and the other is about fighting off the ground (standing up.) In Jow Ga Kung fu, if I throw my enemy on the ground then I won't get on the ground to fight fight him. Instead my efforts will be focused on making sure he can't get back to his feet. It's to my advantage to remain standing where I have more mobility than my enemy who is on the ground in a defensive position on their back or butt. I know my opponent can't effectively attack me if they are on the ground like that. My enemy also can't flee while he's in that position.

In Grappling fighting systems, using the same scenario above. If I throw my enemy on the ground, my next move is to quickly get on my enemy and defeat him on the ground. A grappler's move may be to throw the enemy on the ground and as soon as that enemy hits the ground, get on him and choke him. The grappling in Kung Fu isn't for wrestling or fighting on the ground, it's for putting your enemy on the ground so that you can strike them

Notice how the throws in this Shuai Jiao thows the opponent on the ground in a way that would allow them to either punch or kick them in the face or body. This grappling has a different purpose than the grappling done in BJJ. In BJJ the purpose of getting them on the ground is not so you can strike them, but defeat them through grappling.