Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

Sorry I don't have any videos of me doing Lau Gar. lol.. This is the best that I could find as far for what you are requesting.

Yeah, that's choreographed. I want to see a Lau Gar guy fighting someone who is legitimately trying to punch them in the face.

 

[drop bear]

Look at it with a complete beginner's eyes, someone who has never been into a martial arts club/gym/dojo whatever before and it looks 'doable', it says 'look you can do this' it has everything a martial arts class supposedly should contain so it's no wonder these people think what they are doing is great. I'm betting the people on the video had never done anything physical since they left school so they think they have come along in huge leaps and bounds, I suppose they have in a way, they got off their bums and went to train martial arts but it's such a shame they ended up doing that.

If we look at the kicboxing one it is dooable. They just defended mount like 500 times. A whole section of martial artists convinced this works. And it just keeps being reinforced in their heads.

It is not far removed from the arts that throw hardooken at each other.

 

[geezer]

...So he asked her to demo her black belt form for us (as any proud father would probably do). When she showed us the form, we were shocked at how horrible it was... The father just saw the black belt for his daughter as a trophy accomplishment... Parents like that are worst than the instructors who mislead.

This would be an accurate description of my step-brother who pushed his son to get a black-belt in TKD by age eleven and a second degree by the time he was twelve or thirteen. Then him switched him to "real sports" before entering high school. The kid had no idea about dealing with real violence but he could do a nice martial dance and even break boards. At a family gathering, he asserted that he could dis-arm a knife wielding attacker. I grabbed a rubber spatula and showed him the dangerous error of his thinking. Unfortunately my wife witnessed my well meant "lesson" and sent me outside to learn how to behave. Sheesh!

I remember asking my stepbrother (with whom I have very little contact) how he got his kid to advance so rapidly, since my own son, who has been in TKD twice as long and actually spars, has a much lower rank. He responded that if the teacher didn't advance his son fast enough, he would take him to another, "better" school where he would advance faster!

Sorry I don't have any videos of me doing Lau Gar. lol.. This is the best that I could find as far for what you are requesting.

Looks like a fun routine, a lot like stage-fighting, and it would help with fitness. Definitely looks more fun than yoga, but maybe that's just me. I have no problem with this kind of stuff as long as the participants know that it isn't applicable to real fighting. Heck a lot of what I do isn't directly applicable to real fighting. And in fact, for the last 30 years or so, I've been very successful at avoiding real fights. The problem is when this stuff becomes self deception.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I did Lau Gar for a couple of years and it isn't great. I very much doubt it is a TCMA although it's certainly marketed as such. The training syllabus contains a lot of linework and one step drills and a little bit of light sparring and weapons. There are a small number of forms (when compared with other systems) which isn't a bad thing, but you have to look pretty hard to find a lot of the applications. There's also literally zero partner drills with the focus of improving sensitivity and there doesn't appear to be a lot of consistency between the techniques contained within the syllabus - which is strange, because I can't think of another TCMA like that. I'd go as far as saying that some bits of forms have been blatantly taken from other styles, which again, I amn't precious about, but without an understanding of what these techniques are trying to achieve it's a bit of a fruitless exercise - unless you like learning a funny looking dance.

I achieved a yellow sash (3 away from black) and I considered myself really quite good at the syllabus, but my fears about my training were all but confirmed when I gave 7 Star Praying Mantis a shot...it hadn't entirely been a waste of time, however I decided that from then on out I wanted to train smart in something that was going to make me into a good fighter. For me, Lau Gar was never going to do that.

 

[Tez3]

With the popularity of MMA we are beginning to see exactly the same thing with it, 'gyms' that aren't turning out proper fighters. This is becoming obvious when they try to take fights on shows, they either don't turn up or fight very poorly. It's a sad fact of life that there will always be those for whom money is the greater consideration and who will make that money from the innocent.

 

[drop bear]

With the popularity of MMA we are beginning to see exactly the same thing with it, 'gyms' that aren't turning out proper fighters. This is becoming obvious when they try to take fights on shows, they either don't turn up or fight very poorly. It's a sad fact of life that there will always be those for whom money is the greater consideration and who will make that money from the innocent.

You could always run the standard excuses. Mma for the street,not interested in training with ego.sparring is not realistic.

 

[renc]

Considering that a person can kill you simply by knocking you to the ground, every SD situation should be seen as life or death until you get the situation under control.

This prescriptive claim is tangential, but ok...
If by 'seen as life or death' you mean to recognize that there is a mortal potential in every situation, yes there is everywhere and at all times.
If you mean to treat every situation as the same threat level, I don't think it's possible for most people for example dealing with the cliched drunk uncle vs a gang waving razors in their face.
As to whether they 'should' ... dunno, it seems a touch paranoid.

That depends completely on the person striking,

I believe that is what I said.

In that case above, the person doing the striking has a pretty significant size advantage over the person getting struck.

Yes they do. I don't know where you're going with this.

Choke. No matter how strong you are, you need air.

Yeah but you still have to get the choke on, and if you can't you have to adapt.

 

[renc]

Bjj has this saying. Position before submissions. Because they fall into the same trap. It can be easy to think that the new super technical armbar you have learned will defeat his arm bar. But you have to set it up. That is where the magic is.

Martial artists who talk about the strike and not the set up and escape don't understand the technique.

I don't know if you're expecting me to disagree with you.

 

[TSDTexan]

We had a child student join us, then leave within the first week. I'm thinking the father thought our training was too tough. But she goes away and her father drops in 2 years later to say hello to us and to let us know that his daughter is now one step away from her black belt test. So he asked her to demo her black belt form for us (as any proud father would probably do). When she showed us the form, we were shocked at how horrible it was. I'll put it this way, one wouldn't need to know how to fight to beat it. The father then began to explain the type of "martial art system" she was doing. He said their master told them that their style is gentle on the joints and that they don't get the impact like people do when they punch a pad. We just couldn't believe what we heard. But parents who think like that or who would even want to go to places like that aren't doing martial arts for self-defense at all. The father just saw the black belt for his daughter as a trophy accomplishment, and he couldn't care less if she learned real martial arts. He just wants to be able to say she has a black belt and studied under some well known master.

Parents like that are worst than the instructors who mislead.

This is the nutzo stuff (among other things) that persuade me to never accept children as students, at least in the USA.

I could go to pretty much any third world country and find students whose attitude is radically different. Different social expectation and work ethic both from the parents, and internally from the student.

This also goes for a lot of adults, in the US sadly.

A number of returning servicemen who brought Korean and other martial arts back to the US found drop out ratios unbelievable, because they used the same teaching methods they learned under. But the American public by and large rejects this as "too hard". I apologize if any fellow Americans take offense at that.

But the McDojo is a direct result of our instant gratification oriented progressive postmodern worldview.

Like Geezer's step-brother who would take a son to a better school if said son was not promoted fast enough so perfectly illustrates.

The WW2 vets, (that I have spoken and briefly trained with), who brought Judo back had very tough training methods and frequently rejected potential students because they failed a physical readiness entrance exam for their school admission.

Eventually Judo took a back seat to Karate... But high standards commonly were held from the 40's to the beginning of the 80s.


Something changed in Americans after the kungfu craze of the 60s and 70s came and went.

I dont think it was overnight but the voting of the wallet led to sloppy standards, because Sensei has bills to pay, if he is going to keep the doors open.

I have spoken with two or three old Chinese Yang Taiji men... And they are pretty amazed at how disconnected the taichi is from the Chuan in the US. Everyone is doing it for the health benefits etc.

 

[ShotoNoob]

When I made that statement about the one-strike, I was thinking of fighters and martial art practitioners who throw that one punch and leave the arm extended in a "Van Dam blood sport pose" thinking that one punch is enough to do the job. The people that tend to have this habit are those who do point sparring, where the fighting stops after a foot or a fist makes contact. Notice how the guy raises his hand after scoring. This will eventually become habit and his weakness if he ever gets into a real fight or if he does something like Lei Tai

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I'm a traditionalist, so allow me to lay a premise for my thoughts. Nice follow-on vid & explanation too. Your instructions are clear & to the point, very readily absorbed.
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Premise 1. Traditional karate is not a sport; it's a mental discipline.
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Premise 2. Sport training is fundamentally different from karate training, traditionally. Sport training develops & relies on physical capability. Karate proper develops & relies on mind / body unity with the mind in control at all times. In "control" means actively thinking, not reacting for brevity sake. The entire body is engaged into the technique. As opposed to leaping ahead & throwing an arm into a hand technique, off balance & out of position like we see your 'sport' karate video.
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Premise 3. Sport karate is great for those who want a sport competition experience. Sport karate develops good skills. The problem is sport karate tend to focus on winning, rather than building a strong base of traditional karate that I have described. That means 'scoring points' @ tournaments. Sport karateka tend to work backwards from there, copying & mimicking what they see other sport karate competitors winning with. Speed & fast reactions. Physical traits.

THE 2010Sport MartialArt Video:
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1. The VAN DAM BLOODSPORT PUNCH. Truth be told, the basic kihon karate power shot leaving arm extended workS. So does what the better (IMO) sport karate fighterS do and that is to immediately retract following a strike. By kihon principles, rechamber. The kihon karate form of full ROM movements, full extension is to develop a skill base which I described in my Premise #2. Kihon karate form principles are principles. Those principles DO NOT SAY cut & paste kihon karate training form into kumite. It's the principles that are employed in kumite. Those who think karate kihon is 'air punching,' you're already in a deep hole if you want the benefit the karate masters intended.
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2. POINT FIGHTING. Sport karate is a contest or game. We see that in the video. The contestants really don't want to seriously injure one another. Because scoring points by some sport standard doesn't require precise control of power, tactical intelligence in winning, sport karateka don't have to train to traditional standards. So we have all kinds of contorted means of tagging the other guy with no real whole body power and no real mental discipline in tightly controlled & tactically intelligent techniques.... As you might of surmised, I never go to tournaments.
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3. YOUR RAISED-HAND CRITICISM. To illustrate my view, it's OK for the winner to raise his had after scoring. But that is only if, in his mind, he is mentally prepared to shift mentally & instantly attack or defend. Here, I would surmise the winner is celebrating his victory, his mind is off fighting. By traditional standards, that again is ok, if the assailant is disabled or dead; the threat ended. To automatically raise your hand during kumite is stupid. The disciplined mind is not in control, the emotions are, and traditional karate is on some other planet.
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Following an exchange that is ended or paused, traditional karate kumite training calls for one to RE-position one's Stance & RE-chamber into an Active Guard. Mentally ready for the next exchange. The hand-raiser in the vid demonstrates he is more interested in the win, than executing karate principles. It's a discipline issue, and ultimately a karate base issue.

 

[ShotoNoob]

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If you are talking about the video with me in it, then it wasn't a demo. It was actual sparring and trying to use Jow Ga kung fu techniques so we have a large collection of our kung fu sparring successes and fails. This is a video from one of the images that I posted with me failing with a trap attempt. Nothing in this video was choreographed including the roll that my sparring partner did at the end.

Hopefully one day I'll be able to spar against someone that does traditional karate.

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JowGaWolf, I broke your Jow Ga Sparring Session Video Post into 2 replies 'cause you covered enormous ground. Yeah, I surmised it wasn't a demo from the text. To me, by how I train, it impressed me as a demo. Let me expand.
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1. THE SPORTSMARTIALARTS VID. Here we have 2 sport karateka going @ one another. Priceless how the one contender leaps forward and the defender stationary blocks him-- the attacker reacts like he ran into a tree. I hate to say it, LOL. The attacker probably had (in his head) the sport karate maxim of leaping forward very quick, hoping to catch the opponent by surprise & before the opponent could react. Instead, attacker experienced the surprise of running smack into a tree & it's limb. Proves your whole thinking right there.
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2. JGW's SPARRING EXERCISE. Your kung fu techniques are going to work against boxer's (as a group), sport karateka, because they are more sophisticated in form. You would do well against the 2 competitors in the SMA vid above. Trouble is, your sparring partner in your Actual Sparring Video, is kinda on par with the sport karateka. He's not very dynamic or strong in his technique - what I saw. So of course your approach is going to trump his defense. So in essence, we're (in your Active Sparring Vid) kinda stuck in the same sport mode.
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You mention that nothing in the (Active Sparring Video) was choreographed.... presumably to add real-time & realism. The trouble again is, those elements are precisely the same in the SportMartialArt sport karateka vid. Precisely the same. Exact same environment with the (your) opponent making the exact same fails.
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In terms of the Jow Ga Style, the message in your Active Sparring Video seem to be to create & exploit openings in your opponent's defense. And the Jow Ga combination moves so presented illustrate that very well. Traditional karate kumite training seeks to accomplish exactly the same tactical goal. IT does so, however, on a more simplified plane. If we are speaking Kihon (basic) level karate, much more simplified.
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I'll Leave you with this thought: In your hypothetical sparring exercise with a traditional karateka.
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Here's how I would frame the issue & outcome. There is the issue of physical form (Jow Ga more sophisticated, hence better), and there is the issue of TMA base. The purpose of the traditional kararte curriculum is to simplify the training regimen so as to foster concentration on building a very strong karate base. The SportMartialArt Competition Video, a massive fail in this regard.
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In your hypothetical contest, the one with the stronger traditional martial arts base will prevail. Not the one with more sophisticated technique. So I have identified the true danger (focus on the TMA base) in facing a bona-fide karateka.
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Good luck with that....

 

[renc]

Considering something as being terrible does not have to be ego driven.

When you find people who can only talk in negative terms about another art, it's probably ego.
When those terms are frequently way off base, it's probably ego.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The kid had no idea about dealing with real violence but he could do a nice martial dance and even break boards. At a family gathering, he asserted that he could dis-arm a knife wielding attacker. I grabbed a rubber spatula and showed him the dangerous error of his thinking. Unfortunately my wife witnessed my well meant "lesson" and sent me outside to learn how to behave

That's a good lesson for him to learn. It's good that you showed him the dangers since it was clear that he truly felt that he could dis-arm a knife wielding attacker. You may have saved his life with that demonstration. Hopefully he know has a different perspective about defending against a knife.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I did Lau Gar for a couple of years and it isn't great. I very much doubt it is a TCMA although it's certainly marketed as such. The training syllabus contains a lot of linework and one step drills and a little bit of light sparring and weapons. There are a small number of forms (when compared with other systems) which isn't a bad thing, but you have to look pretty hard to find a lot of the applications. There's also literally zero partner drills with the focus of improving sensitivity and there doesn't appear to be a lot of consistency between the techniques contained within the syllabus - which is strange, because I can't think of another TCMA like that. I'd go as far as saying that some bits of forms have been blatantly taken from other styles, which again, I amn't precious about, but without an understanding of what these techniques are trying to achieve it's a bit of a fruitless exercise - unless you like learning a funny looking dance.

I achieved a yellow sash (3 away from black) and I considered myself really quite good at the syllabus, but my fears about my training were all but confirmed when I gave 7 Star Praying Mantis a shot...it hadn't entirely been a waste of time, however I decided that from then on out I wanted to train smart in something that was going to make me into a good fighter. For me, Lau Gar was never going to do that.

Dinkydoo.
Thanks for sharing your experience with Lau Gar. I have never heard of Lau Gar before and now I can stop being confused when it looks like I'm seeing other styles in the form. Are you still training in 7 Star Praying Mantis?

 

[renc]

The kihon karate form of full ROM movements, full extension is to develop a skill base which I described in my Premise #2. Kihon karate form principles are principles. Those principles DO NOT SAY cut & paste kihon karate training form into kumite. It's the principles that are employed in kumite. Those who think karate kihon is 'air punching,' you're already in a deep hole if you want the benefit the karate masters intended.

ShotoNoob, if you don't mind, would you list kihon principles? Not an arm long list including real subtle stuff, just a broad / top level category list?

Thanks

 

[renc]

I also agree that people should be humble.

And humility is widely prized in martial arts for martial reasons.
Attitudes promoted by Rogan and that 'Nic' ultimately harm their arts.
But it's great marketing if your aim is to attract the most number to your art, if you believe that popularity reflects quality.

 

[renc]

And humility is widely prized in martial arts for martial reasons.
Attitudes promoted by Rogan and that 'Nic' ultimately harm their arts.
But it's great marketing if your aim is to attract the most number to your art, if you believe that popularity reflects quality.

Ego stoking being given previously as a reason for the popularity of McDojos, it's an unexpected and ironic symmetry.

 

[Hanzou]

This prescriptive claim is tangential, but ok...
If by 'seen as life or death' you mean to recognize that there is a mortal potential in every situation, yes there is everywhere and at all times.
If you mean to treat every situation as the same threat level, I don't think it's possible for most people for example dealing with the cliched drunk uncle vs a gang waving razors in their face.
As to whether they 'should' ... dunno, it seems a touch paranoid.

No, I mean every situation could kill you. Some situations give you a higher chance than others.

Goofing around with your drunk uncle at a BBQ isn't a situation. Your drunk uncle beating his wife in front of you is a situation.

I believe that is what I said.

Yes they do. I don't know where you're going with this.

That a big huge guy kicking you in the nuts is different than a smaller person kicking you in the nuts.

Yeah but you still have to get the choke on, and if you can't you have to adapt.

Or you can simply move to a different choke......

 

[Hanzou]

And humility is widely prized in martial arts for martial reasons.
Attitudes promoted by Rogan and that 'Nic' ultimately harm their arts.
But it's great marketing if your aim is to attract the most number to your art, if you believe that popularity reflects quality.

Well 10th Planet Bjj continues to be popular, and still churn out respected and quality black belts, so there goes that theory.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Dinkydoo.
Thanks for sharing your experience with Lau Gar. I have never heard of Lau Gar before and now I can stop being confused when it looks like I'm seeing other styles in the form. Are you still training in 7 Star Praying Mantis?

Happy to share.

I have literally just moved cities in the past 3 weeks so I am no longer doing mantis (my old club was the only 7 Star club in Scotland). I have a bit of kickboxing experience now so I'm going to continue down that route with Muay Thai; there a few good gyms here. I'm also interested in adding a bit of BJJ or Judo to my training and I'm set to try out a JKD club this week.

What, after a month or so, I hope to be doing every week is:

Standup sport based striking - Muay Thai
Grappling - BJJ/Judo
Self Defence - JKD or Silat

There is quite a good wing chun club here and I have done a little WC before, but i'm not sure that would fit in with what I'm looking for in the Muay Thai - stylistically, they are very different.