Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

It took me a little more than 2 seconds to throw my combo (keep in mind that I'm holding back and not going full speed). That means that he has less than 2 seconds to assume that I would be off to the side of him and not in front of him. From the time that I was in front of him and landed the kick right below his knee he had exactly less than 0:00;15 of a second to know that I would trap his punch to my face. From the time that I trapped his punch, (at an angle) he only has less than 0:00;10 of a second to take advantage of any openings that may be there as a result of me doing my backfist to his head.

The picture below clearly shows that his body twisted. You can look at his front leg and torso and easily tell that he can't do a round house or a side kick from that position. You'll also notice the way that I start my backfist protects my head. And yes it's from the same video. Yes my lower body looks open which is why he probably took the front heel kick as his choice, but because I was at an angle, that front kick wasn't going to land.
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Here you can see that his kick misses me completely. Look at the position of his foot, and his torso in relation to my lead foot and rear foot. Also take note that he's actually leaning to his left as if he's trying to punch around my backfist. That lean is actually cause by the backfist being on his face. I added a red line so that it's easier to see the angle.
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Since you stated you were pulling the vid soon, I took the liberty of commenting now.... I'll refer to the vid re time stamp.
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All your tactics work. OTOH, I can quickly name two traditional karate kumite counters to your advance.
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#1: Drop Height, Shift Stance & Counter Punch.The first was apparent to me @ 0:03, the full speed portion. Here, a simple level change and step-in counter strike to the mid-section... a very standard Shotokan competition counter tactic. Front lunge or reverse punch I'll leave each alternative open...
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#2: 1-Step on the Outside-Block (or guard) & Counter Punch. You move to the angle away in order to launch the right backfist actually sets up the 1st step in the 1-step. You are right in position @ TS 0:16 slow-motion portion--for the 1-step counter-tactic. The defender has no need to step to the outside. The right hand blocks or guards against the backfist; Left hand counters. Middle or High, as perhaps Dirty Dog, others have remarked....
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Your opponent makes a classic 'sport karate' mistake of trying to kick when you are springing / too close. Shorter range weapons are in order. Leg technique too little too late...
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Great set up for illustration / demo of kung fu (or karate) attack & defense utilization....
 
Notice how the throws in this Shuai Jiao thows the opponent on the ground in a way that would allow them to either punch or kick them in the face or body. This grappling has a different purpose than the grappling done in BJJ. In BJJ the purpose of getting them on the ground is not so you can strike them, but defeat them through grappling.

There's throws and takedowns in Bjj as well;


just like Judo or Shuai Jiao you can end the fight with one of them. However, if you're not able to end the fight in that fashion, or you don't want to seriously injury your opponent, you can opt for the ground option. The ground option is also in place in the event that the person you're trying to throw is better than you are at throwing.

In the end, the intent is to not purposely go to the ground all the time. The intent is to be a well-rounded, and be capable of ending a confrontation on your terms.
 
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And yes, we both know that there are TMAs that don't spar.

I don't know of 'traditional' Chinese martial arts which don't incorporate sparring. Seriously.

There's no need for me to go through the web and link you to various TMA schools that don't practice it, we both know that that is a true statement.

Please try to keep the claims consistent.
Rogan claimed that Chinese martial arts do not incorporate sparring...
"When you start sparring, that's when techniques really get weeded out, and that's when you understand what is the most effective use of energy and force, what techniques work the best, what techniques are applicable and what techniques are really kinda frivolous and what techniques are a waste of time and there's better alternatives. Well, Kung Fu never did all that, they didn't have all the sparring."
When I pulled this up, you changed his claim to...
There are Kung Fu styles that don't spar
When I asked for references to Kung Fu styles that don't spar, you changed the claim to...
various TMA schools
I know that there are some 'TMA' schools which don't spar. That doesn't make Rogan's over-generalization any less ignorant.

It's logical from his viewpoint which is based on MMA and combat sports. From his vantage point it is strange that Kung Fu styles haven't made a bigger impact in MMA, whereas other styles have. Further, his PoV is supported by what's currently occurring within China itself.

Claims about the popularity of MMA in China, and claims about the popularity of certain styles in MMA, do not make Rogan's comments about back-fists vs overhand rights any less illogical, and does not stop me from wondering why some consider him to be a reliable source... on the arts that I practise.

You miss the point here; Instead of incorporating traditional kung fu hand techniques, Sanda incorporated western boxing. Why would they do that?

Not being snarky, but you'd have to ask 'them'... if it were possible, or find some historical sources.

I'm simply repeating the reports from articles in China that are talking about the situation there.

You're quoting opinions as if they change certain facts.

If a reporter in China is interviewing Kung Fu instructors and the Chinese youth and both are saying the same thing, who am I to argue?

'the Chinese youth' is still an over-generalization and opinions still don't change reality, at least not retrospectively :)

There's been plenty of cases where boxers applied their MA in a self defense situation just like they would in the ring.

Of course, if the context allows, the point is to not be prescriptive, the point is to adapt.

I would argue that the skills developed in a competitive/sport context better prepare you for a dangerous situation than doing a bunch of pointless forms and katas.

That is to assume what you're trying to prove.

After all who do you think would be more proficient at using their skill set; Mike Tyson in his prime, or some fat slob Kung Fu instructor who does pretty forms in silk pajamas?

And that is a strawman.

That is goodnight.
 
Where did rogan claim that Chinese martial arts don't incorporate sparring? Can you post a link?
 
Point of disagreement. One-strike "kill" is viable
When I made that statement about the one-strike, I was thinking of fighters and martial art practitioners who throw that one punch and leave the arm extended in a "Van Dam blood sport pose" thinking that one punch is enough to do the job. The people that tend to have this habit are those who do point sparring, where the fighting stops after a foot or a fist makes contact. Notice how the guy raises his hand after scoring. This will eventually become habit and his weakness if he ever gets into a real fight or if he does something like Lei Tai

You have a demo vid that's packed with content & easy to watch & review
If you are talking about the video with me in it, then it wasn't a demo. It was actual sparring and trying to use Jow Ga kung fu techniques so we have a large collection of our kung fu sparring successes and fails. This is a video from one of the images that I posted with me failing with a trap attempt. Nothing in this video was choreographed including the roll that my sparring partner did at the end.

All your tactics work. OTOH, I can quickly name two traditional karate kumite counters to your advance.
Hopefully one day I'll be able to spar against someone that does traditional karate.
 
Notice how the throws in this Shuai Jiao thows the opponent on the ground in a way that would allow them to either punch or kick them in the face or body. This grappling has a different purpose than the grappling done in BJJ. In BJJ the purpose of getting them on the ground is not so you can strike them, but defeat them through grappling.

No. The purpose of getting them onto the ground is so you can control them. Once control is established, then you have choices. I can pound their face in, I choke them out, I can break a limb, or I can simply hold them until the situation diffuses.

I wouldn't claim to say what JowGa is about so don't take it wrong when I say that you don't seem to know what BJJ is about. It's the applications of leverage to throw, sweep, control, break, and choke a person out. It can be used standing or on the ground. The purpose of taking a striker to the ground purposefully is that you effectively negate their fighting style. That's not to say that BJJ can't be used standing up. It just has the clear advantage on the ground.
 
When he's facing the camera he's got that messed up form that twists the power away from the fist. Then when he turns his back to the camera the movement used to throw the backfist is different than what he was doing before.
Now my mouth has fewer words in it, because you took them. :)
 
And this is the difference between Grappling fighting systems and non-grappling fighting systems. Grappling fighting systems focus on fighting on the ground not on the feet. Many Traditional Martial Arts are focused on fighting on their feet and not the ground. This doesn't mean that Grappling fighting systems don't have striking or that some Traditional Martial Arts, for example kung fu, doesn't have grappling. It's just that one system is about fighting on the ground and the other is about fighting off the ground (standing up.) In Jow Ga Kung fu, if I throw my enemy on the ground then I won't get on the ground to fight fight him. Instead my efforts will be focused on making sure he can't get back to his feet. It's to my advantage to remain standing where I have more mobility than my enemy who is on the ground in a defensive position on their back or butt. I know my opponent can't effectively attack me if they are on the ground like that. My enemy also can't flee while he's in that position.


You need to do both well. If you want to be properly well rounded. That way you get to choose whether you go to ground or not.

The issue you will have having no top ground skill is that you give up a dominant position to risk a 50/50. This means a fight that could have ended keeps going subjecting you to more risk.

On a side note one of our guys might be looking at one fc.

Which will add a new dimension to ground fighting.
 

This is relevant to the thread. They do a great deal of smack talk in that vid.
 
No. The purpose of getting them onto the ground is so you can control them. Once control is established, then you have choices. I can pound their face in, I choke them out, I can break a limb, or I can simply hold them until the situation diffuses.
I don't see how this is different from this "In BJJ the purpose of getting them on the ground is not so you can strike them, but defeat them through grappling." All of what you said is done through grappling. Pound thier face in, grappling is involved to make sure they can't get up while you are pounding, choking is grappling, break a limb is done through grabbling, holding them until the situation is diffuses is done through grappling.
 
It's the applications of leverage to throw, sweep, control, break, and choke a person out.
All of these are done while holding onto the person.

The purpose of taking a striker to the ground purposefully is that you effectively negate their fighting style. That's not to say that BJJ can't be used standing up. It just has the clear advantage on the ground.
All of this is done through being on the ground. Why would a grappler fight outside of their advantage? For a grappler the main goal isn't to fight standing up it's to fight on the ground where they have as you say "It's just has the clear advantage on the ground." . For a lot of traditional martial arts the goal is to fight standing up.
 
I don't see how this is different from this "In BJJ the purpose of getting them on the ground is not so you can strike them, but defeat them through grappling." All of what you said is done through grappling. Pound thier face in, grappling is involved to make sure they can't get up while you are pounding, choking is grappling, break a limb is done through grabbling, holding them until the situation is diffuses is done through grappling.

That isn't the purpose. View the video of throws I linked earlier. Many of those throws could disable someone as soon as they hit the concrete. The purpose is to protect yourself. Bjj gives you the ability to fight from the ground because you may have to fight from that range in a confrontation.
 
I like how they spend several minutes talking smack about other martial arts and then state how they have control over their egos.

What I find interesting are modern Kung Fu and TMA practitioners who shy away from things like MMA when many of their arts celebrate practitioners and founders who participated in, and dominated NHB competitions in the past.

It's quite an interesting development.
 

This is relevant to the thread. They do a great deal of smack talk in that vid.
This is one of the videos that led to my op.
Joe really is disrespectful towards eastern culture as well as martial art that he views as ineffective.

Bashes on bowing.

They took the time to bash on titles of Sabanim and a few others. This is a western world view crapping on an eastern one.

If BJJ ground fighting had developed in Korea instead of Brazil... They wouldn't be calling themselves "Coach".

I find it interesting that Joe definitely does not bash Judo.
Even though judo has Kata... And striking (weak, underdeveloped and almost lost to Judo as no one spars with striking, therefore it is not taught in sport judo curriculum unlike the pre WW2 Kodokan Judo teaching of Atemi Waza *)

And if he went to Korea, and went to a "Yudo" martial art school, the Yudoin would use titles like Sabanim, or Kwan jangim etc. And He would see bowing and scraping, to flags and people.

Of course, each school is as unique as its owner/head instructor. Some instructors are extremely informal, and at the other end of the spectrum others are so formal it is painful to even watch.

But in the end, Joe chooses to channel a Howard Stern over Howard Cosell commentator style because it seems that controversy and shock sell and push a product better.

* as articulated in literature like " my method of self defense " by Mikonosuke Kawaishi who seemed to have split with the Kodokan in the 50s.
 
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JowGaWolf,

Thanks for promoting an interesting discussion on back-fists and providing references. Since Rogan made his comparison based on power, I was thinking of a vertical forearm, bent elbow type which is less powerful than an overhand right. Regarding comments about counters, the elbow is kept tucked in, perhaps a bit less protection than a jab where the shoulder covers the jaw.

Yeah, spinning back-fists on the other hand, different context different application. There's a lot of exposure and power, similar to a spinning side kick or spinning heel kick. So we train to look before releasing, and it comes down to observation and timing as with most everything.
 
many of their arts celebrate practitioners and founders who participated in, and dominated NHB competitions in the past.
That is not something that is done in my school but I am sure there are some that do it.If the founders participated in, and dominated NHB competitions in the past.then maybe they are too old for MMA competitions now.
 

This is relevant to the thread. They do a great deal of smack talk in that vid.

A lot of smack talking. Pretty much, hey look at us we are the best, we are better than these other people. Yet, we are so humble.
That video is rather pathetic on their part. Now, I do agree with some things that were said just not in how they said it. I agree that people should not get a rank, title, etc. and not push themselves. That does happen and it is unfortunate. I also agree that people should be humble. Just practice, train, get better, help other people and live life. Your just a person even if you have been doing this a long time or have a title, etc.

Just train, get better and do your best to be a good person!
 

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