Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

What low percentage technique?

your funny...not all back fist strikes are created equal and most are not spinning back fists either

I read the old Okinawan Chun fa/Kenpo Tou-Te guys... And they had a very special target for the back fist namely that pressure point between the upper lip and the nose.
Fired from a vertical exentention, over a trapped hand.

Instead of striking with the back of the fist they struck with the root knuckles, of index and middle fingers, with a very relaxed wrist.

A very different animal than the point tourney fighter's leaping horizontal extended backfist to anywhere on the head present in many of today's TKDish kick boxing and Karate schools teaching.

So ya... I totally agree.. Many unequal backfists, same name.

 

[RTKDCMB]

that pressure point between the upper lip

It's called the Philtrum and it is not something you want to aim for when someone is sitting on top of you unless you want them bleeding all over you.

Instead of striking with the back of the fist they struck with the root knuckles, of index and middle fingers, with a very relaxed wrist.

That is a bit like saying they have a punch but instead of striking with the fore knuckles they strike with the palm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hard hit from hard non-spinning backfist similar to the ones found in hung gar and Jow Ga kung fu.
He actually lands 2 hard backfists (3:54 and at 5:32)

Most people assume that a backfist has no power or that it's not a strong strike. Here's an interesting article on the backfist that references this fight.
My guess is that most people would think a backfist is not a strong attack because they have not learned how to properly connect the body to generate the necessary power. As a result people have a weak backfist. Here are 2 videos showing a weak backfist. Notice how they try to generate all of the power from their arms.

He even says that the backfist lacks power and then tries to use his waist to generate more power and the impact still sounds the same. This tells me that he hasn't learned to connect the body to his backfist properly that how he explained how to increase. Another sign that he doesn't know how to connect his body to his backfist is by looking at how his waist is twisting. Even though his backfist is weak he does understand that using the waist helps to add power, he just doesn't know how to do it.

This will get you knocked out in a real fight or even a sparing fight where people throw combos.

If a student learns from instructors like the 2 videos above then that studentss perception of a backfist is going to be that it's not a strong attack with little or no power.
If a student learns how to do a backfist from someone like the guy was was stunning his opponent with the backfist, then that student's perception is going to be that a backfist can be dangerous.

If you have an instructor that teaches you like the 2 martial artist instructors then I would recommend that you find another instructor that can teach that back fist properly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I read the old Okinawan Chun fa/Kenpo Tou-Te guys... And they had a very special target for the back fist namely that pressure point between the upper lip and the nose.
Fired from a vertical exentention, over a trapped hand.

Instead of striking with the back of the fist they struck with the root knuckles, of index and middle fingers, with a very relaxed wrist.

A very different animal than the point tourney fighter's leaping horizontal extended backfist to anywhere on the head present in many of today's TKDish kick boxing and Karate schools teaching.

So ya... I totally agree.. Many unequal backfists, same name.

Point sparring backfists are totally useless and they should not even count that trash as a hit. Point sparring is just advanced tag.

 

[drop bear]

your funny...not all back fist strikes are created equal and most are not spinning back fists either

So people keep saying. I say they pretty much are in this case. So please outline the difference.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure how one compares a back fist to Chinese history though. Sorry, Drop Bear the subject seems to have veered away suddenly in what seems an attempt to derail the thread.

I think as with all these discussions we are looking at one strike in isolation when in fact when sparring fighting we use a lot of strikes instinctively and in combinations, I'm absolutely no use ( I've said this before) at describing sparring and techniques, I can show but not write it. We don't stand there face on to our opponents/attackers doing one strike at a time, we move (especially in Wado, we move out of the way a lot) we make instinctive strikes, as I said combinations. Backfist is part of that, I use it a lot, it does have power when used right, it's like lots of strikes, there's pluses and minuses. To discuss it in isolation is pointless because it's part of an armoury, it's not the only weapon we have.

Nobody has discussed it as part of an armory. No real set ups no combinations. Just it is a really good strike ignoring its isgiven.

And now there are different back fists that land differently?

I think these would need to be explained.

I have given step by step explanations and have received. Pretty vague responses.

 

[drop bear]

Anyway. Mabye this will work.

VID 20150904 184950

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hard hit from hard non-spinning backfist similar to the ones found in hung gar and Jow Ga kung fu.
He actually lands 2 hard backfists (3:54 and at 5:32)

There were some halfway decent back fists there.I don't know if I would go so far as to call them hard

Most people assume that a backfist has no power or that it's not a strong strike.

Until i started reading this thread I have never heard anyone say that.

Here's an interesting article on the backfist that references this fight.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2015/5/2...st-boxing-knockout-ko-gif-analysis-highlights

The article suggests that the back fist in MMA is undeveloped.just like the front snap kick was until a few years ago.

My guess is that most people would think a backfist is not a strong attack because they have not learned how to properly connect the body to generate the necessary power. As a result people have a weak backfist. Here are 2 videos showing a weak backfist. Notice how they try to generate all of the power from their arms.

He even says that the backfist lacks power and then tries to use his waist to generate more power and the impact still sounds the same. This tells me that he hasn't learned to connect the body to his backfist properly that how he explained how to increase. Another sign that he doesn't know how to connect his body to his backfist is by looking at how his waist is twisting. Even though his backfist is weak he does understand that using the waist helps to add power, he just doesn't know how to do it.

This will get you knocked out in a real fight or even a sparing fight where people throw combos.

If a student learns from instructors like the 2 videos above then that studentss perception of a backfist is going to be that it's not a strong attack with little or no power.

If you have an instructor that teaches you like the 2 martial artist instructors then I would recommend that you find another instructor that can teach that back fist properly.

Personally I have never found the instructor in the first back fist video to be particularly impressive. The back fist video second video basicall shows a jabbing version of the back fist, which still requires more hip involvement that was shown there. There was very little power shown in either video.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So people keep saying. I say they pretty much are in this case. So please outline the difference.

Seriously.... you claim to train martial arts...and you only believe there is a spinning back fist strike..no others....is this a joke, are you deliberately being disagreeable, or do you seriously not know?

 

[Dinkydoo]

I didn't have any arguments about the backfist. There's a discussion about a left back fist hitting the left side of the defenders head that was confusing me, since the stances and positions of the fighters were unclear to me.

The only argument that I had was related to the backfist I did in my video, where some people said that I was open, but it only looks that when in reality I wasn't as open as it appears because I was attacking at an angle . If a person does a backfist directly in front of a person then yes they will be open, but if done correctly and at an angle then they aren't as open as it appears. People were looking at my video in slow motion and thought my sparring partner could attack me where I appeared to be open. In short the reason he couldn't was because of the angle that I was attacking from. Ironically the same sparring partner whooped up on me tonight. He threw a lot of Jow Ga at me and I just couldn't handle it.

Sorry, I've been getting confused after joining in the discussion late.

Having rewatched your video, I agree with your stance on not being open during that backfist. The angle is very favourable, so unless your sparring partner was anticipating it, and ready to unload a spinning heel or something, you're in a good position.

 

[drop bear]

Seriously.... you claim to train martial arts...and you only believe there is a spinning back fist strike..no others....is this a joke, are you deliberately being disagreeable, or do you seriously not know?

OK. So we will work on the idea that there is no difference that makes any real difference to this discussion then.

 

[drop bear]

Sorry, I've been getting confused after joining in the discussion late.

Having rewatched your video, I agree with your stance on not being open during that backfist. The angle is very favourable, so unless your sparring partner was anticipating it, and ready to unload a spinning heel or something, you're in a good position.

Yeah a trick or a bait. And you could make it work. Apparently coming back from a massive overhand.(although I still think there are safer options)

But as a basic part of your combinations it is high risk.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK. So we will work on the idea that there is no difference that makes any real difference to this discussion then.

No we work with the idea that you are clueless about the topic as it applies to a back fist. No shame in admitting you don't know or might be wrong here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Anyway. Maybe this will work.

VID 20150904 184950

Thanks for the video. I can't speak for anyone else but I definitely dont throw a backfist like that. Whoever made the video, don't jab after blocking that backfist, Just step forward and throw a hook either to the head or ribs. That step forward would put you at a better angle to generate strength for a punch.

For people who throw backfists, put this in your library of how not to throw a backfist.

 

[Dinkydoo]

OK I have one hand blocking and one hand free to strike. You have one hand striking and one hand useless.

Normally as in a straight punch i am trying to achieve that by slipping or doing counters but you are giving me that position on a platter.

Why are you helping me find these openings? I mean if a backfist was a monster ko strike I could see where you would throw a shot to risk a counter. (Spinning backfist) but a backfist is not a hard strike

I am giving you that opening on a platter, but that opening is only available for a very, very short period of time. It isn't a 'monster ko strike' but it is much quicker, and less telegraphed than a spinning backfist. I use it quite a lot against sparring partners who are (predominantly) boxers, that have some kickboxing experience too, and it is quite successful. Being aware of the obvious counter helps too, because if the strike is blocked or slipped I know that almost always they're going to throw something at my left side...

 

[drop bear]

The article suggests that the back fist in MMA is undeveloped.just like the front snap kick was until a few years ago.

Well it dosent. It suggests that it is a tool for a specific fighter.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yeah a trick or a bait. And you could make it work. Apparently coming back from a massive overhand.(although I still think there are safer options)

But as a basic part of your combinations it is high risk.

I don't disagree - faint low-backfist high is a technique I use probably too much.....yet it keeps landing.

If you throw it right off the bat then there are risks...but if you throw a baclhand hook straight from guard then unless you've timed it well, you're going to be lucky not to get a knee or a roundhouse into that open side

 

[Tez3]

Anyway. Mabye this will work.

VID 20150904 184950

So who throws a backfist and stands there with his arm outstretched like that ?

 

[drop bear]

I am giving you that opening on a platter, but that opening is only available for a very, very short period of time. It isn't a 'monster ko strike' but it is much quicker, and less telegraphed than a spinning backfist. I use it quite a lot against sparring partners who are (predominantly) boxers, that have some kickboxing experience too, and it is quite successful. Being aware of the obvious counter helps too, because if the strike is blocked or slipped I know that almost always they're going to throw something at my left side...

All of boxing is openings only open for a very short amount of time. And is generally the sort of thing you try to clean up.
If I dropped my hands throwing a punch a very short period of time it wouldn't fly.

See I would risk an opening if I had a good chance of hitting the other guy hard. I would not risk an opening for a distracting backfist.

Look people do these things to be unorthodox. Slipping inside. Lead crosses all sorts of things.

But so far there has been little mention of it as an unorthodox move. Just this solid for basic.

 

[drop bear]

So who throws a backfist and stands there with his arm outstretched like that ?

Krav?