Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[drop bear]

Yea, it took a bit of working out in my head to get the scenario straight myself before posting....so I understand where you're coming from!

Fighter 1 is standing in a left fighting stance, Fighter 2 is standing in a left fighting stance, directly opposite Fighter 1 - mirroring each other.

Fighter 1 throws lead hand (left) backfist to Fighter 2's left side of face - the backfist I do, if thrown to this target, is generally whipped out from the guard position with the fist held vertically....and then back to guard (in front of my face). I find it to be really quick technique, due to the whip-like motion. Fighter 2 does however have a small window of opportunity where Fighter 1's left side is open, whilst the backfist is extended; a right hook from Fighter 2 is what I said in my example.

Does that help?

I would really struggle posing and taking these pictures simultaneously!

More importantly.
His left hand is occupied doing the backfist.
My left hand is occupied blocking the punch.

My right hand is free and he is open
his right hand is free but he can't do anything with it.

Hi

 

[drop bear]

Is that not the same with any punch that is slipped or blocked though? Momentarily you are leaving which ever side you've thrown the punch from, wide open. Granted, the left backfist to opponent's left side has more distance to travel back to the guard after being blocked, but any punch should be thrown fast and then retreat back to guard as soon as possible - provided you're not following through to clinch or some other technique where the punching arm can manouvre from full extension. Thinking of an example, I'm not sure there is that much of a distance between the blocked positions of say, a left jab and a left backfist to the opponent's right, that means a quick right hook counter couldn't quite easily get in following either strike...

There is a difference, but it seems fairly minimal to me; yet nobody is arguing against the effectiveness of the jab.

Timing.
I have to slip and then return shot in the time his arm comes back.

I don't have to slip a backfist to gain an open shot at his head.he just walks into it.

 

[Tez3]

It almost shouldn't be. Unless you are baiting someone or tricking someone. Otherwise there is almost always something better.

This was the answer you gave when someone asked you to post a video of what you think a backfist is.


It's not semantics at all, your answer doesn't make sense. It almost shouldn't be what?

 

[Tez3]

Oh OK. Because you think there will be some minor variation that does not give up the whole side of your body when you throw one.

I asked you if that was the answer to the question and this is what you replied, so again not semantics just confusion.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Yes this helps.
Scenarios:
#1 If fighter 1 throws a back hand without a trap then fighter 1 is in danger of being of hit by the right or left hand of fighter 2
#2 If fighter 1 traps fighter's 2 lead hand while standing directly in front of fighter 2, then fighter 1 is at risk of being hit with the fighter's 2 free hand.
#3 If fighter 1 traps fighter's 2 lead hand while moving at an angle to the left of fighter 2 then fighter 1 has minimized the risk of being hit with fighter's 2 free hand as that hadn would have to punch across the trapped hand.
#4 If fighter 1 has a failed trap attempt then fighter 2 can strike with the right hand or left hand.

A good situation would be that fighter 2 commits to a punch with his lead hand, which fighter 1 can either parry or trap while moving to the outside of the punch and landing a backfist. This would force 1 to try to punch over his outstretched arm. In this scenario fighter 2 should focus efforts on placing the free hand between the backfist and his face in order to reduce the blow from the backfist. If fighter 2 is fast enough and strong enough then fighter 2 should be able to stop the backfist from pushing the his blocking hand into his face.

Do the scenarios sound accurate based on the information that you gave about fighter 1 and fighter 2?

The scenarios are more or less, what i had in mind when considering my first response....although, now I'm confused. Were you arguing before 'for' or 'against' the use of the backfist, because your reply seems reasonable to me in that it identifies the main circumstantial advantages and disadvantages that the backfist has. I thought you were arguing against its use....

 

[Dinkydoo]

More importantly.
His left hand is occupied doing the backfist.
My left hand is occupied blocking the punch.

My right hand is free and he is open
his right hand is free but he can't do anything with it.

Hi

If Fighter 2 had blocked a backfist to the head then his left side (body) would be open. Fighter 1's hip would be loaded perfectly to land a powerful body shot.

I'm not seeing how these hypotheticals do anything more than demonstrate that most strikes will at some stage leave you open to a counter.

Timing.
I have to slip and then return shot in the time his arm comes back.

I don't have to slip a backfist to gain an open shot at his head.he just walks into it.

You could cover and slip right, leaving your opponent's left cross in a similar position to walk straight into a right hook....but, I appreciate that this involves an extra movement. That said, off the lead my backfist is much quicker than my cross - so depending on my postion I believe the tradeoffs pay-off...much like any other strike.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It almost shouldn't be. Unless you are baiting someone or tricking someone. Otherwise there is almost always something better.

I am not tricking or baiting anyone I am simply asking for clarification, a video would be the easiest, most direct way to do that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The scenarios are more or less, what i had in mind when considering my first response....although, now I'm confused. Were you arguing before 'for' or 'against' the use of the backfist, because your reply seems reasonable to me in that it identifies the main circumstantial advantages and disadvantages that the backfist has. I thought you were arguing against its use....

I didn't have any arguments about the backfist. There's a discussion about a left back fist hitting the left side of the defenders head that was confusing me, since the stances and positions of the fighters were unclear to me.

The only argument that I had was related to the backfist I did in my video, where some people said that I was open, but it only looks that when in reality I wasn't as open as it appears because I was attacking at an angle . If a person does a backfist directly in front of a person then yes they will be open, but if done correctly and at an angle then they aren't as open as it appears. People were looking at my video in slow motion and thought my sparring partner could attack me where I appeared to be open. In short the reason he couldn't was because of the angle that I was attacking from. Ironically the same sparring partner whooped up on me tonight. He threw a lot of Jow Ga at me and I just couldn't handle it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He is a bit of a gumby though.I wasn't going to mention it but if you want to raise it I will comment.

Tonight I sparred against him and he was on his game tonight. He used a lot of Jow Ga techniques on me tonight and I ate about 90% of what he threw. I can still tell where his punches hit me in the head. Tonight he took some techniques out of my play book and it was like I was fighting myself and losing. The good thing is that now I'll get better by sparring against him

 

[drop bear]

I asked you if that was the answer to the question and this is what you replied, so again not semantics just confusion.

You haven't answered my question what difference would a different backfist technique actually make?

I mean if we can figure that out mabye we can get somewhere.

 

[drop bear]

I am not tricking or baiting anyone I am simply asking for clarification, a video would be the easiest, most direct way to do that.

Baiting someone with the back fist. Using a low percentage technique based on the idea that nobody expects it.

 

[drop bear]

If Fighter 2 had blocked a backfist to the head then his left side (body) would be open. Fighter 1's hip would be loaded perfectly to land a powerful body shot.

I'm not seeing how these hypotheticals do anything more than demonstrate that most strikes will at some stage leave you open to a counter.



You could cover and slip right, leaving your opponent's left cross in a similar position to walk straight into a right hook....but, I appreciate that this involves an extra movement. That said, off the lead my backfist is much quicker than my cross - so depending on my postion I believe the tradeoffs pay-off...much like any other strike.

OK I have one hand blocking and one hand free to strike. You have one hand striking and one hand useless.

Normally as in a straight punch i am trying to achieve that by slipping or doing counters but you are giving me that position on a platter.

Why are you helping me find these openings? I mean if a backfist was a monster ko strike I could see where you would throw a shot to risk a counter. (Spinning backfist) but a backfist is not a hard strike

 

[TSDTexan]

Based on the Sino-Japanese war, intensified western imperialism in the region after the boxer rebellion, the birth of nationalist and communist movements, the fall of the Qing dynasty, the westernization of Chinese society and its military, and China becoming a modern nationalist state.

All of that occurred in that period you're talking about.



The period I'm interested in is the 1920s, not the 1870s. That is two very different periods in Chinese history.



Saying that your style doesn't have ground fighting because landing on the ground, and being on the ground is dangerous (yet the style in question has takedowns and throws where you end up on the ground anyway), is nonsense.



Their excuse:


It is better to just say that ground fighting is outside your sport's rules.



No, because Boxing says that grappling isn't part of their ruleset. They don't make up excuses to try to say that ground fighting is an ineffective range of fighting.

Not to mention losing the opium wars, and Hong Kong to the British, Indochina to the French, Taiwan to the Japanese... And Korea shifting away from vassal state... (Only to be subjugated by Japan) and Ming loyalists trying to topple the Qing Manchu dynasty, and return China to a Ming restored dynasty. It is no wonder the boy Emperor renounced his throne. He had no teeth to rule a nation with.

 

[TSDTexan]

Frankly, its a good idea for anyone serious about striking to take up western boxing at some point. Western boxing teaches you not only how to properly defend from direct strikes, but probably has one of the best defensive systems around. People were amazed when Anderson Silva started slipping through strikes in MMA, but SIlva has nothing on the masters of it like Tyson and Ali.

Observe:

Yes, but a swarmer (Tyson) has to be able to take really good hits, and if so... he is good for anybody but the brawler. Ali... Was not a swarmer... Not only did he have amazing timing, and leanback defense... He was built like a sherman tank when it came to hits. Factor in footwork, and head movement.... Was amazing. But what saved Ali in the ring was his time spent using Foreman as a sparing partner and vice versa. When I look at Ali today... I see massive brain damage from sparing with Foreman and others but mostly big George.

There is a good reason Tyson never stepped into the ring with Foreman.

Defenses can be complely overwhelmed by the right type of boxer. The best defense is avoidance, followed by redirection. Full on blocking is a lost moment better spent counterattacking. One of the best aspects of Western boxing defense is learning angles and body conditioning to take the hits.
One thing I learned from Motobu Choki is you dont need to block everything, especially from someone with low power strikes. As he said learn how to tell how much striking power some one has in a first glance. Visual assessment.

This is stuff you don't usually hear taught cause its an aquired skill in the background of your head informed by large amounts of sparing against many body types.

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure how one compares a back fist to Chinese history though. Sorry, Drop Bear the subject seems to have veered away suddenly in what seems an attempt to derail the thread.

I think as with all these discussions we are looking at one strike in isolation when in fact when sparring fighting we use a lot of strikes instinctively and in combinations, I'm absolutely no use ( I've said this before) at describing sparring and techniques, I can show but not write it. We don't stand there face on to our opponents/attackers doing one strike at a time, we move (especially in Wado, we move out of the way a lot) we make instinctive strikes, as I said combinations. Backfist is part of that, I use it a lot, it does have power when used right, it's like lots of strikes, there's pluses and minuses. To discuss it in isolation is pointless because it's part of an armoury, it's not the only weapon we have.

 

[drop bear]

OK. I can't upload a video.

 

[RTKDCMB]

OK. I can't upload a video.

You can just post a link to a video on the internet.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Using a low percentage technique based on the idea that nobody expects it.

What low percentage technique?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I mean if a backfist was a monster ko strike I could see where you would throw a shot to risk a counter. (Spinning backfist) but a backfist is not a hard strike

I see Joe Rogan is not the only one seriously underestimating a good back fist strike.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Why are you helping me find these openings? I mean if a backfist was a monster ko strike I could see where you would throw a shot to risk a counter. (Spinning backfist) but a backfist is not a hard strike

your funny...not all back fist strikes are created equal and most are not spinning back fists either