Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Tez3]

Just an observation, but if you throw a left hand back fist to the left side of your opponent's head, your opponent can block with his own left hand and your left side will be open to a strike. Your right hand may be up but it won't be covering the left side of your head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If the left hand is the back hand then the right hand can cover the left hand side of your head. It would be the right hand side of your head that wouldn't be covered so you would bring your arm up so the elbow protects. Though we would tend to move as Wado is more of a 'body movement to get out of the way' sort of style. That's my words lol not the official description of Wado Ryu.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He chases hands so he is trying to keep up with your attacks by reaching out for your arms all the time. This drags his hands further and further away from his body and puts him in a continually worse position. And then because what he is trying to do is impossible he then leans to give himself more reach. Making his situation worse.

We have a saying in wresting called Tyrannosaurus arms. Which are little arms tucked in. Even for a hand trapping style you can't get to crazy with what your hands do.

Good analysis and good advice "you can't get to crazy with what your hands" This goes both for attacking and defense. I would highly recommend any martial art school to video record their sparring sessions so that they can use the videos as teaching tools. I built a website for our school and we have a video library of us sparring and it's very useful in learning where we make mistakes. We also use it to help us to read fighters better by picking up bad habits and instincts that can be exploited.

 

[Tez3]

We have videos of us sparring and also a huge record of MMA fights for our fighters to see potential opponents, it always makes me laugh when we watch them and our instructor says 'watch X, he doesn't like being punched in the face' as if that's weird. Or it's 'watch Y, he doesn't like being kicked on the legs', no really? You can see some really crazy things sometimes on fight videos, things you think would never work or would never teach turn out to be master pieces.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Do me a favor and post a video (from anyone) of how you think a back fist (not a spinning back fist) should be thrown so I can get an idea of where you are coming from.

I would like to see this too, mainly because I'm lost and I don't know what style of martial art this is referring to. I know different styles throw back fists in different ways.

 

[Tez3]

I know different styles throw back fists in different ways.

I have to agree with you. Various styles do a lot of techniques differently which makes arguing that TMA's are 'useless' a redundant argument, there's simply too many differences to generalise in that way. As I posted before I know for certain that JKD and Wado Ryu do backfist very differently because after doing the latter for so long I can't actually do JKD backfists though both are equally good strikes when done properly.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have to agree with you. Various styles do a lot of techniques differently which makes arguing that TMA's are 'useless' a redundant argument, there's simply too many differences to generalise in that way. As I posted before I know for certain that JKD and Wado Ryu do backfist very differently because after doing the latter for so long I can't actually do JKD backfists though both are equally good strikes when done properly.

exactly. JKD, Chen Taiji, Yang Taiji, Xingyi and Bagua all do a back fist...and they are not all the same

 

[Hanzou]

Just an observation, but if you throw a left hand back fist to the left side of your opponent's head, your opponent can block with his own left hand and your left side will be open to a strike. Your right hand may be up but it won't be covering the left side of your head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Frankly, its a good idea for anyone serious about striking to take up western boxing at some point. Western boxing teaches you not only how to properly defend from direct strikes, but probably has one of the best defensive systems around. People were amazed when Anderson Silva started slipping through strikes in MMA, but SIlva has nothing on the masters of it like Tyson and Ali.

Observe:

 

[drop bear]

Just an observation, but if you throw a left hand back fist to the left side of your opponent's head, your opponent can block with his own left hand and your left side will be open to a strike. Your right hand may be up but it won't be covering the left side of your head.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That.

And I can't see a good way around it.

I am going to tee up a video.

 

[drop bear]

I don't think that's the answer to the question asked?

Oh OK. Because you think there will be some minor variation that does not give up the whole side of your body when you throw one.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Oh OK. Because you think there will be some minor variation that does not give up the whole side of your body when you throw one.

Is that not the same with any punch that is slipped or blocked though? Momentarily you are leaving which ever side you've thrown the punch from, wide open. Granted, the left backfist to opponent's left side has more distance to travel back to the guard after being blocked, but any punch should be thrown fast and then retreat back to guard as soon as possible - provided you're not following through to clinch or some other technique where the punching arm can manouvre from full extension. Thinking of an example, I'm not sure there is that much of a distance between the blocked positions of say, a left jab and a left backfist to the opponent's right, that means a quick right hook counter couldn't quite easily get in following either strike...

There is a difference, but it seems fairly minimal to me; yet nobody is arguing against the effectiveness of the jab.

 

[JowGaWolf]

is this what your

Frankly, its a good idea for anyone serious about striking to take up western boxing at some point. Western boxing teaches you not only how to properly defend from direct strikes, but probably has one of the best defensive systems around. People were amazed when Anderson Silva started slipping through strikes in MMA, but SIlva has nothing on the masters of it like Tyson and Ali.

Observe:

I'm assuming that by striking you are only referring to punches?

 

[Tez3]

Oh OK. Because you think there will be some minor variation that does not give up the whole side of your body when you throw one.

Are you answering questions out of order because that's not the question I asked is it? You were asked to post a video, you answered that with something unrelated as you have here. Are you losing track of posts?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Is that not the same with any punch that is slipped or blocked though? Momentarily you are leaving which ever side you've thrown the punch from, wide open. Granted, the left backfist to opponent's left side has more distance to travel back to the guard after being blocked, but any punch should be thrown fast and then retreat back to guard as soon as possible - provided you're not following through to clinch or some other technique where the punching arm can manouvre from full extension. Thinking of an example, I'm not sure there is that much of a distance between the blocked positions of say, a left jab and a left backfist to the opponent's right, that means a quick right hook counter couldn't quite easily get in following either strike...

There is a difference, but it seems fairly minimal to me; yet nobody is arguing against the effectiveness of the jab.

You guys need to take pictures of what you are talking about lol.

 

[Dinkydoo]

You guys need to take pictures of what you are talking about lol.

Yea, it took a bit of working out in my head to get the scenario straight myself before posting....so I understand where you're coming from!

Fighter 1 is standing in a left fighting stance, Fighter 2 is standing in a left fighting stance, directly opposite Fighter 1 - mirroring each other.

Fighter 1 throws lead hand (left) backfist to Fighter 2's left side of face - the backfist I do, if thrown to this target, is generally whipped out from the guard position with the fist held vertically....and then back to guard (in front of my face). I find it to be really quick technique, due to the whip-like motion. Fighter 2 does however have a small window of opportunity where Fighter 1's left side is open, whilst the backfist is extended; a right hook from Fighter 2 is what I said in my example.

Does that help?

I would really struggle posing and taking these pictures simultaneously!

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yea, it took a bit of working out in my head to get the scenario straight myself before posting....so I understand where you're coming from!

Fighter 1 is standing in a left fighting stance, Fighter 2 is standing in a left fighting stance, directly opposite Fighter 1 - mirroring each other.

Fighter 1 throws lead hand (left) backfist to Fighter 2's left side of face - the backfist I do, if thrown to this target, is generally whipped out from the guard position with the fist held vertically....and then back to guard (in front of my face). I find it to be really quick technique, due to the whip-like motion. Fighter 2 does however have a small window of opportunity where Fighter 1's left side is open, whilst the backfist is extended; a right hook from Fighter 2 is what I said in my example.

Does that help?

I would really struggle posing and taking these pictures simultaneously!

Yes this helps.
Scenarios:
#1 If fighter 1 throws a back hand without a trap then fighter 1 is in danger of being of hit by the right or left hand of fighter 2
#2 If fighter 1 traps fighter's 2 lead hand while standing directly in front of fighter 2, then fighter 1 is at risk of being hit with the fighter's 2 free hand.
#3 If fighter 1 traps fighter's 2 lead hand while moving at an angle to the left of fighter 2 then fighter 1 has minimized the risk of being hit with fighter's 2 free hand as that hadn would have to punch across the trapped hand.
#4 If fighter 1 has a failed trap attempt then fighter 2 can strike with the right hand or left hand.

A good situation would be that fighter 2 commits to a punch with his lead hand, which fighter 1 can either parry or trap while moving to the outside of the punch and landing a backfist. This would force 1 to try to punch over his outstretched arm. In this scenario fighter 2 should focus efforts on placing the free hand between the backfist and his face in order to reduce the blow from the backfist. If fighter 2 is fast enough and strong enough then fighter 2 should be able to stop the backfist from pushing the his blocking hand into his face.

Do the scenarios sound accurate based on the information that you gave about fighter 1 and fighter 2?

 

[Tez3]

One of the problems about discussing strikes, kicks etc is that we talk about them in isolation. We don't just do the one strike step back and then do the next one, we follow on with others so while the head may be uncovered momentarily it doesn't stay like the photograph...static. There's so many combinations of strikes and kicks we can do that if we tried to list them all we'd still be here till the New year and probably beyond.

 

[Hanzou]

is this what your

I'm assuming that by striking you are only referring to punches?

Actually I'm talking about every aspect of striking except for kicking.

And honestly boxing would help that too.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One of the problems about discussing strikes, kicks etc is that we talk about them in isolation. We don't just do the one strike step back and then do the next one, we follow on with others so while the head may be uncovered momentarily it doesn't stay like the photograph...static. There's so many combinations of strikes and kicks we can do that if we tried to list them all we'd still be here till the New year and probably beyond.

That's why I'm lost, when I think of attacks I also take movement, stances, and angles into consideration because all of that has an effect on how efficient and effective a strike will be.
Familiarity also plays a role.

I think one of the draw backs to TKD is that they are such good kickers that everyone knows this. The first thing that comes to my mind if I'm sparring someone that does TKD is that there are going to be some high fast kicks so I build my strategy on the fact that people who do TKD are excellent kickers and really like to kick. Watch a tkd point sparring match and you'll see that their kicks out number the punches thrown. When someone is familiar with how you fight then they can have a general idea of what game plan you'll use. It's the same with Wing Chun.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually I'm talking about every aspect of striking except for kicking.

And honestly boxing would help that too.

Unfortunately boxing and slipping punches wouldn't help me because it doesn't go well with my fighting system. Me slipping punches will mean that I couldn't throw my kung fu techniques. The way that boxers generate power makes the slipping effective for them. There's no way I could slip a punch like a boxer and then follow up with a big hungar punch. My style uses punch slips but they aren't the same as boxing and we use them with a parry.

 

[drop bear]

Are you answering questions out of order because that's not the question I asked is it? You were asked to post a video, you answered that with something unrelated as you have here. Are you losing track of posts?

Oh this is another tez semantic thing then. The question was out of context. So there is no answer for that question.

So I guess I will ask.

Why does it make a difference what sort of back fist you throw?