Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Tez3]

Because we are discussing a back fist.

Quite simply a back fist will either come from the side and land pretty much like in that photo or it is going to come straight over the top and land vertically. Which is a manky way to throw a back fist.

Now it does not matter if your backfist looks any different provided it lands about in the same place leaving pretty much the same opportunity to counter it because when you throw a backfist the whole right side of your head is open.

I think you are getting muddled up to be honest, when we use back fist we make sure we are covered up and it's easy to do this, how you do the backfist matters a lot, we don't do it as shown in the pics above, ours is elbow up first then back fist and can come off either arm, we twist as we do it to give more power. At no time are you left open. I've never seen a back fist come over the top. In JKD I know the back fist is done first then the elbow comes up, I've tried to do it that way when I trained with them but it's ingrained in me that the elbow comes up first then the back fist, it works well because it's not a 'one' strike you follow it up quickly with another strike often an elbow strike.

 

[drop bear]

I think you are getting muddled up to be honest, when we use back fist we make sure we are covered up and it's easy to do this, how you do the backfist matters a lot, we don't do it as shown in the pics above, ours is elbow up first then back fist and can come off either arm, we twist as we do it to give more power. At no time are you left open. I've never seen a back fist come over the top. In JKD I know the back fist is done first then the elbow comes up, I've tried to do it that way when I trained with them but it's ingrained in me that the elbow comes up first then the back fist, it works well because it's not a 'one' strike you follow it up quickly with another strike often an elbow strike.

That elbow is not going to cover the whole side of your body. It is going to land on the side of your head with the arm out stretched.

And why would you back up a ranged strike with a short strike?

 

[Tez3]

That elbow is not going to cover the whole side of your body. It is going to land on the side of your head with the arm out stretched.

And why would you back up a ranged strike with a short strike?

It doesn't have to be a ranged strike and the elbow isn't there to cover, I didn't say it was, that's what your other arm is for.

 

[Dirty Dog]

My right side isn't open to a counter attack because of the angle that I'm at. If you notice in the video he actually tries to kick me and his foot goes past me. The reason his foot goes past me is because I'm no longer standing where I was when his brain told him to kick. The exposure that your are talking about only exist if I'm standing in front of him.

The reason his foot went past you is because he chose the wrong kick. You would have moved into a roundhouse.

He couldn't have slipped his left hand above my arm because you can't do a heel kick and an effective left cross at the same time especially if you are leaning to the left as a result of trying to avoid the backfist.

Who said anything about "at the same time?"
Leaning to the left to avoid the backfist would have aided a roundhouse kick. And if you don't think you're exposed to a roundhouse in that photo, you're lying to yourself.

wrong again. Watch the video agian, look at his legs and you'll see that he was in no position to throw a roundhouse. A side kick would have only been possible if he knew I was going to take that angle, which he didn't and is the reason why none of what you said happen.

Or maybe he's just not a good kicker...

 

[JowGaWolf]

The reason his foot went past you is because he chose the wrong kick. You would have moved into a roundhouse.

This statement is like telling someone who ducks a jab that the reason he didn't get hit was because the guy throwing the jab threw the wrong punch and should have thrown an uppercut.
The benefit of attacking at angles is that it makes your opponent attack where you were instead of where you are going to be. If he was in a position to do a roundhouse then I would have factored it and would have done something other than a back fist as a way to address a possible roundhouse. Had he not punched which would have resulted in me doing an empty trap then I would have not continued with the backfist because his right hand would still be free and not controlled.

I actually have a video where I do an empty trap because my opponent didn't throw the punch combo that I thought he would. I abandoned my original plans of attack with an expectation that he would do a round house kick. Here are clips from that video
Here you can see that I do an empty trap because my opponent didn't move in as I thought he would. Notice that he's in a good position to launch a round house and being that he used to do TKD. I take his roundhouse serious, he's our strongest kicker for the roundhouse kick and could easily break ribs. I'm saying this so you understand that he knows how to throw a good roundhouse. At this point I know I'm in danger.

There are 2 rules that I have for a roundhouse kick. 1. The power comes at the end of this type of kick. 2. When I see it or think it's coming then move forward so that I don't get hit with 100% of the force of the kick. This is what I did in this video:
1. I moved forward and at the same time I grab his guard with my right hand to prevent the right hand from being able to hit me. If I get hit, the the kick won't land at full force.
2. If someone kicks then it means that they are rooted on one leg. If I can disrupt or destroy the root then it will reduce the power of at a roundhouse kick. This is what you are seeing in the picture below. The reason he's leaning back is because I'm too close and he's trying to adjust. Take a look at the location of my left foot in the picture above and compare it to where it is located now.
3. My left hand is free to deal with that roundhouse kick coming in. I know that I will be ok with blocking it with my left hand because I'm not on the power end of the kick

In this picture you can see that my foot destroys his root. This is the disruption that a "tap" to his root causes. He would have gone airborne if I kicked him with my full force. Take notice of how my left arm is blocking the kick coming in. Take a look at how well I'm rooted. The only reason this happened is because my initial trap was a big fail.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Leaning to the left to avoid the backfist would have aided a roundhouse kick.

He did lean to the left and the backfist still landed. Had the backfist been full strength then it would have knocked him off balance because of the way we throw our backfist (which I won't be giving the technique up).

He is also not a weak kicker.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can't accurately analyze a video by only assuming what one person could have or would have done to stop an attack. There are two people fighting so you have to analyze both. Starting with a process like this.
1. How would my opponent need to have his body set up in order to do a successful roundhouse to my stomach, chest, or face.?
2. If my opponent sets up this way then what events are most likely not to occur. In the case of the backfist video, had my opponent had a stance that is better suited for a roundhouse then he would have never thrown the punch that I trapped, resulting in an empty trap.
3. If I do an empty trap then will I continue with the plan to do a backfist or will I change my plan?
4. If I continue my plan then will the roundhouse be succesful?
5. If I change my plan then what will the outcomes be based on my possible choices.?

This is how you analyze a video. You can't change one person's actions without changing another person's actions. The assumption that some people are making is that I wouldn't change my course of action even if he was in a proper stance to throw a roundhouse kick. This how many TMAs get into trouble when they make plans on how to defend against a shoot. Some people just assume that they are guaranteed to punch or kick their way out of it, and because of that logic, they fail to adjust when plan A changes fails

Had I did an empty trap or had my partner been in a position to do a roundhouse in that video, then I would have never done that type of backhand and therefore would have never been in the position.

Also just because someone looks open doesn't mean that they are actually open. Fighters will often give the appearance that they are open in order to draw in a certain attack or certain reaction.

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK, you're invulnerable. Got it. Have fun with that.

 

[JowGaWolf]

OK, you're invulnerable. Got it. Have fun with that.

Yeah you are right. I'm invulnerable, that's why I have over plenty of pictures like this to prove that to myself that I'm invulnerable.

All of the assumptions that you make about what could have been done are made because you know that my last shot will be a backfist. Had I stopped the video before the trap, no one in this room would have known what my next attack would have been, or if I would have been attacking at an angle, retreating, or attacking head-on. You wouldn't know if what type of punch or kick was coming next. And that's the situation that my sparring partner was in. And that's the reality of a fight, no one has the luxury to get a do over in the middle or at the end of a combo.

If anyone could have predicted what would have happened next if I had stopped the video before the parry then they are only fooling themselves, and are probably the same people who think they can punch their way out of a grappling shoot.

 

[drop bear]

He did lean to the left and the backfist still landed. Had the backfist been full strength then it would have knocked him off balance because of the way we throw our backfist (which I won't be giving the technique up).

He is also not a weak kicker.

He is a bit of a gumby though.I wasn't going to mention it but if you want to raise it I will comment.

He seems to be creating more opportunitys than you are.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He is a bit of a gumby though.I wasn't going to mention it but if you want to raise it I will comment.

He seems to be creating more opportunitys than you are.

I don't know what you mean when you say "he's a bit of a gumby" and which guy are you talking about? Me (the red headgear) or the one in the black head gear?

 

[drop bear]

I don't know what you mean when you say "he's a bit of a gumby" and which guy are you talking about? Me (the red headgear) or the one in the black head gear?

Gumby is a big green plasticine guy.

You are getting unopposed opportunity's to strike because he is making some errors that could be avoided.
Unbalanced and overcommitted striking,chasing hands. Hands lower than his waist.flinching? Not sure I will have another look.

But yeah under those conditions a back fist will work fine

Edit.

(Not so flinchy)

 

[RTKDCMB]

Gumby is a big green plasticine guy.

A grappler's worst nightmare.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Gumby is a big green plasticine guy.

You are getting unopposed opportunity's to strike because he is making some errors that could be avoided.
Unbalanced and overcommitted striking,chasing hands. Hands lower than his waist.flinching? Not sure I will have another look.

But yeah under those conditions a back fist will work fine

Edit.

(Not so flinchy)

ha ha ha.. I know who gumby is just didn't wasn't sure about the expression.. That's for taking the time to explain because I definitely had the wrong meaning in mind, thinking more along the lines of uncoordinated similar to the way gumby walks.

As far as my sparring partner goes, good eyes. I've only seen him unbalanced when he's over excited or when something new comes at him. In the video his reactions are because I through something extremely new and different at him so he didn't know what to quite do with it. I'm not saying I'm some hotshot, I'm just saying that it's not norm for me to attack or move like that in sparring. As a matter of fact it was the first time that I tried that combo in sparring so it was even new for me. 90% of my sparring is done as a counter fighter. I spend more time trying to learn my opponents movement than I do in trying to attack and sometimes that gets me into trouble because I'm so focus on trying to understand my opponents movement that I don't react in time, resulting in me getting rocked in the head or punched in the gut.

I couldn't tell you what was going on with his hands lower than his waist. Your guess is good as mine. I think he flinched because he might have been expecting me to do one of our big punches. If that's what the flinch is from then it's an expectation of how hard the impact of the punch would be, but then again I could be wrong. I'll have to ask him about it to see what the deal was.

 

[drop bear]

ha ha ha.. I know who gumby is just didn't wasn't sure about the expression.. That's for taking the time to explain because I definitely had the wrong meaning in mind, thinking more along the lines of uncoordinated similar to the way gumby walks.

As far as my sparring partner goes, good eyes. I've only seen him unbalanced when he's over excited or when something new comes at him. In the video his reactions are because I through something extremely new and different at him so he didn't know what to quite do with it. I'm not saying I'm some hotshot, I'm just saying that it's not norm for me to attack or move like that in sparring. As a matter of fact it was the first time that I tried that combo in sparring so it was even new for me. 90% of my sparring is done as a counter fighter. I spend more time trying to learn my opponents movement than I do in trying to attack and sometimes that gets me into trouble because I'm so focus on trying to understand my opponents movement that I don't react in time, resulting in me getting rocked in the head or punched in the gut.

I couldn't tell you what was going on with his hands lower than his waist. Your guess is good as mine. I think he flinched because he might have been expecting me to do one of our big punches. If that's what the flinch is from then it's an expectation of how hard the impact of the punch would be, but then again I could be wrong. I'll have to ask him about it to see what the deal was.

He chases hands so he is trying to keep up with your attacks by reaching out for your arms all the time. This drags his hands further and further away from his body and puts him in a continually worse position. And then because what he is trying to do is impossible he then leans to give himself more reach. Making his situation worse.

We have a saying in wresting called Tyrannosaurus arms. Which are little arms tucked in. Even for a hand trapping style you can't get to crazy with what your hands do.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If it was a straight punch you would have to move to slip and then throw a round punch before that hand goes back to their head.

You can do it but you are trying to beat 1 movement with several movement which is really hard.

Or you could slip and do a reverse knife hand (ridge hand) to the diaphragm (one movement) or slip, block and punch with the free hand or you could slip and use a turning knee strike or you can slip and side kick the knee or you could .....There are far too many options to say you have to do anything.

If you throw more than one punch in combination then you are working on the principle that some of those strikes will be thrown into the of oponants guard.

Throwing more than one punch in a combination and there are several principles you can be working on. You could use one punch to create an opening for subsequent punches to distract or make them cover up one area to expose another or you can strike to two or more areas that are unguarded, the boxing combination you showed is only one option not a whole principle.

Do me a favor and post a video (from anyone) of how you think a back fist (not a spinning back fist) should be thrown so I can get an idea of where you are coming from.

 

[drop bear]

Do me a favor and post a video (from anyone) of how you think a back fist (not a spinning back fist) should be thrown so I can get an idea of where you are coming from

It almost shouldn't be. Unless you are baiting someone or tricking someone. Otherwise there is almost always something better.

 

[Tez3]

It almost shouldn't be. Unless you are baiting someone or tricking someone. Otherwise there is almost always something better.

I don't think that's the answer to the question asked?

 

[Hanzou]

A grappler's worst nightmare.

Only if Gumby is also a grappler.

If not, he's an easy choke.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Just an observation, but if you throw a left hand back fist to the left side of your opponent's head, your opponent can block with his own left hand and your left side will be open to a strike. Your right hand may be up but it won't be covering the left side of your head.


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