Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[ShotoNoob]

Training methodology is at work here. I am of the same belief. That if you are training to fight the end result should actually be a fight. Or you get a bit weird.

Tkders who go at it full contact fight OK. Those that don't well nobody knows one way or the other.

Joe rogan says his experience of being man handled by a boxer and suggests tkd does not train as effectively for fighting. I would agree that if you could not jump in a ring and survive an encounter with a boxer then you need to reevaluate your training.

So say you wind up like this guy.

Then the obvious advice is do some boxing,get better hand skills. And never fight that guy again.

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I've been listening to the banter here, as the forum regulars demonstrate their English skills, including a repository of definitions I've never encountered. The Joe Rogan commentary is another that gets recycled & recycled &recycled. Joe Rogan, IMO, is and was a top sport karate (TKD style) fighter. Because Rogan is / was a top sport karate competitor, doesn't mean his competence translates into true TMA. Rogan's creditials are a sport karate competitor & instructor. That's it.
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We see that with the comment here. You have a TKD stylist against a boxer. The TKD stylist is doing all the silly stuff TKD sport competitors typically do. Spring in with a kick, that has point fighting effect.... yet no measurable impact in a full contact venue. Obviously incompetent. The TKD stylist does the typical, trite move in and kick then bounce away. Oh & dance, er prance around (hint: instead of engage & destroy) There is absolutely no continuity or reason to his tactics. Pathetic, yet representative of sport karate (TKD) practice.
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The poster mentions the kick emphasis. Here's the simple applied definition of TKD: Foot / Fist Way. Yes, in application, TKD is supposed to be, traditionally that is, balanced by use of hands & feet. Not to mention some tactical intelligence in the applications of same.
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Practitioners who train for sport, who don't train traditional, then fail or find failing in the 'traditional marital art' they have never actually understood or trained. That, my friends is JOE ROGAN, simply defined....
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BTW: I got the TKD definition from a googled WTKD website. "What is TKD..." 'nuff said.

 

[Tez3]

Shotonoob, style bashing is against the rules here, if you can't say anything constructive and just want to stir things up then this isn't the place for it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

From that picture it is difficult to tell if the strike the guy on the right is throwing is a back fist or a vertical punch that the guy on the left has just slipped by.

 

[Tez3]

From that picture it is difficult to tell if the strike the guy on the right is throwing is a back fist or a vertical punch that the guy on the left has just slipped by.

I agree, it's hard to tell what it actually is,

 

[drop bear]

From that picture it is difficult to tell if the strike the guy on the right is throwing is a back fist or a vertical punch that the guy on the left has just slipped by.

What difference would it make?

Let's say it is a backfist and we can deal with slipping a vertical punch another day.

 

[Tez3]

What difference would it make?

Let's say it is a backfist and we can deal with slipping a vertical punch another day.

Really? why say it's a backfist if it's not? It certainly doesn't resemble one we'd do for a start, how about showing a roundhouse kick and we'll call it a takedown?

 

[ShotoNoob]

Shotonoob, style bashing is against the rules here, if you can't say anything constructive and just want to stir things up then this isn't the place for it.

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And it's against the rules to put words in my mouth.... so don't do so....

 

[RTKDCMB]

What difference would it make?

In this instance, not a lot however putting it in context, I was stating that a good back fist is a very effective technique, then you said the following:

It leaves you open to a counter. If you backfist with say. Your right hand and I have my guard up the backfist will do nothing.

But this leaves the right side of your head open to a counter with my free hand.

I then stated that the back fist leaves you no more open to counter attack than a hook or cross and that it makes no sense to strike to where your guard is without moving it or making you move it, or words to that effect. Then you said the following:

A hook or a cross does not do this. Because you can cover your head with your free hand.

I then said that you can also cover your head with your free hand when doing a back fist and when you are doing a right hook or a cross you can still be vulnerable to attack from the right side. You then posted the photo to illustrate your point;

See how the right hand side is open to counter. This is the same side as that free hand that is not involved in blocking.

The picture could either be a back fist or a punch (straight punch or cross) and you will have the exact same problem with being open to counter attack.

 

[drop bear]

Really? why say it's a backfist if it's not? It certainly doesn't resemble one we'd do for a start, how about showing a roundhouse kick and we'll call it a takedown?

Because we are discussing a back fist.

Quite simply a back fist will either come from the side and land pretty much like in that photo or it is going to come straight over the top and land vertically. Which is a manky way to throw a back fist.

Now it does not matter if your backfist looks any different provided it lands about in the same place leaving pretty much the same opportunity to counter it because when you throw a backfist the whole right side of your head is open.

 

[drop bear]

I then said that you can also cover your head with your free hand when doing a back fist and when you are doing a right hook or a cross you can still be vulnerable to attack from the right side. You then posted the photo to illustrate your point;

Your cover hand would have to come right across the front of your face.

Or duck the shot or cover with your shoulder. All of which is risky.

 

[drop bear]

The picture could either be a back fist or a punch (straight punch or cross) and you will have the exact same problem with being open to counter attack.

If it was a straight punch you would have to move to slip and then throw a round punch before that hand goes back to their head.

You can do it but you are trying to beat 1 movement with several movement which is really hard.

 

[drop bear]

I then stated that the back fist leaves you no more open to counter attack than a hook or cross and that it makes no sense to strike to where your guard is without moving it or making you move it, or words to that effect. Then you said the following:

If you throw more than one punch in combination then you are working on the principle that some of those strikes will be thrown into the of oponants guard.

Left hook into the guard right uppercut into the head.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here's a video of me throwing a vertical backfist during sparring without my right side being open to attack
About the video: Watch it while you can. It won't be up for long.
1. This was during live sparring, with no prearranged attacks. The guy I'm sparring against is quick but the combo threw him off.
2. I was practicing with attacking at angles and this was my first real success. Notice at how my sparring partner tries to kick me, not realizing that I was no longer in front of him.
3. The back fist was about as text book as you'll probably see for a trap then backfist strike.
4. It took me a little more than 2 seconds to throw 4 attacks and that's was because I was holding back
5. I actually pulled the backfist so it wouldn't land hard.
6. I also intentionally threw him behind my back because I didn't put enough power in the backfist to stun him. If the backfist was thrown at full force then the throw wouldn't have been necessary.
7. The right side of my head is out of his range.
8. The video won't be up long.

Martial Artist should be throwing combos and multiple attacks. Save the Bruce Lee one punch, one kick stuff for the movies. Throwing combinations keeps your opponent occupied and creates openings that otherwise wouldn't be there. Backfists are difficult to counter unless you see it coming. My backfist lands with no resistance from his guard.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Quite simply a back fist will either come from the side and land pretty much like in that photo or it is going to come straight over the top and land vertically. Which is a manky way to throw a back fist.

In the style of kung fu that I practice the direction of the backfist depends on what target we are trying to hit. The vertical back fists can is awesome for stunning the opponent with the objective of setting up another attack.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Here's a video of me throwing a vertical backfist during sparring without my right side being open to attack

Your right side is completely open to attack. Every attack creates openings for a counter attack.
The right side of your head was exposed. Your ribs and abdomen were exposed. Your right leg is exposed.

Your partner could have slipped his left hand above your arm and attacked your head, especially if he'd kept his right hand up to protect his head. That kick could have been a roundhouse to the solar plexus or side kick to the ribs. Or to the back/side or your right knee. Given that pretty much 100% of your weight in on your right leg, an attack to the knee could have been crippling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Your right side is completely open to attack. Every attack creates openings for a counter attack. Quite simply a back fist will either come from the side and land pretty much like in that photo or it is going to come straight over the top and land vertically. Which is a manky way to throw a back fist.

My right side isn't open to a counter attack because of the angle that I'm at. If you notice in the video he actually tries to kick me and his foot goes past me. The reason his foot goes past me is because I'm no longer standing where I was when his brain told him to kick. The exposure that your are talking about only exist if I'm standing in front of him.

Your partner could have slipped his left hand above your arm and attacked your head, especially if he'd kept his right hand up to protect his head

He couldn't have slipped his left hand above my arm because you can't do a heel kick and an effective left cross at the same time especially if you are leaning to the left as a result of trying to avoid the backfist. (don't take my word for it, try it and you'll see how awkward it is.). Had I hit him with full force he would have been knocked off balance. He also couldn't have used his right hand to block because I used a trap to pull down his right hand. You can see this right before I throw the backfist.

That kick could have been a roundhouse to the solar plexus or side kick to the ribs. Or to the back/side or your right knee. Given that pretty much 100% of your weight in on your right leg, an attack to the knee could have been crippling.

wrong again. Watch the video agian, look at his legs and you'll see that he was in no position to throw a roundhouse. A side kick would have only been possible if he knew I was going to take that angle, which he didn't and is the reason why none of what you said happen.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It took me a little more than 2 seconds to throw my combo (keep in mind that I'm holding back and not going full speed). That means that he has less than 2 seconds to assume that I would be off to the side of him and not in front of him. From the time that I was in front of him and landed the kick right below his knee he had exactly less than 0:00;15 of a second to know that I would trap his punch to my face. From the time that I trapped his punch, (at an angle) he only has less than 0:00;10 of a second to take advantage of any openings that may be there as a result of me doing my backfist to his head.

The picture below clearly shows that his body twisted. You can look at his front leg and torso and easily tell that he can't do a round house or a side kick from that position. You'll also notice the way that I start my backfist protects my head. And yes it's from the same video. Yes my lower body looks open which is why he probably took the front heel kick as his choice, but because I was at an angle, that front kick wasn't going to land.

Here you can see that his kick misses me completely. Look at the position of his foot, and his torso in relation to my lead foot and rear foot. Also take note that he's actually leaning to his left as if he's trying to punch around my backfist. That lean is actually cause by the backfist being on his face. I added a red line so that it's easier to see the angle.

 

[drop bear]

Your right side is completely open to attack. Every attack creates openings for a counter attack.
The right side of your head was exposed. Your ribs and abdomen were exposed. Your right leg is exposed.

View attachment 19479

Your partner could have slipped his left hand above your arm and attacked your head, especially if he'd kept his right hand up to protect his head. That kick could have been a roundhouse to the solar plexus or side kick to the ribs. Or to the back/side or your right knee. Given that pretty much 100% of your weight in on your right leg, an attack to the knee could have been crippling.

He parries the backfist giving away the advantage of controlling that side.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The pictures below come from a real sparring session we were practicing technique. There were no prearranged movements and neither one of us knew what technique the other was working on.

This is a trap with a backfist thrown at an angle. My left hand is responsible for keeping punches out of my face. My backfist will serve as attack and defense. A hook will land if I stand still. I'm actually too high in my stance so a shoot on me while I'm in this a high stance would be successful. The shoot isn't an issue because we practice on a concrete floor. The point is the backfist is thrown at an angle.

This is a lead backfist. Similar to the Jow Ga video with instructor in a blue shirt. I think this backfist is worst than the spinning backfist.

This is the proper way to throw the backfist shown in the first picture (above) where I was standing too high. My stance is lower and wider, my head is protected from any attack from that left hand that's on my waist. My left hand is controlling his left arm. A punch to my gut is out of the question. The reason my backfist isn't blurred on this one is because I actually stopped it from making contact. I forgot what my partner was trying to do, in this image, I just remember that the backfist caught him by surprise and he knew as well as I did that he was done for. At this point he's basically just bracing for the impact.

 

[Tez3]

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And it's against the rules to put words in my mouth.... so don't do so....

So, you've come back here to stir arguments up.....