Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[RTKDCMB]

"Y'know if you back-fist someone in the face it's not gonna feel good, it's not gonna feel good to get back-fisted in the face, but it's not as good as if you [expletive] overhand right somebody."

When would a back-fist be used.
When would a jab be used. Is a jab not as good as an overhand right? Is this nonsensical?
When you're breaking down a (standup) guard.
When someone at your back grabs your shoulder and spins you round, there's no time for an overhand right.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're striking low to the groin then high to the face.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're using the other arm to press and control an opponents arm.
When it's an option, when your hands are in a particular position at a particular point in time.
When you're looking for that change in angle and shape which causes a 'wtf' moment for a few milliseconds in your opponents' mind, which is often enough to land the opening.
This is what you learn in free sparring. In 'traditional' Kung Fu arts.
Has Joe Rogan trained in 'Kung Fu'?
Has he searched out good 'Kung Fu' instructors and asked why they teach what they teach?
Has he tried sparring with them?

When would a back-fist be used? - When you want to break someone's face. Joe Rogan seriously underestimates the effectiveness of a good back fist.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because you can't poke out your partner's eyes in practice. You can't keep kicking them in the nuts. You can't bite them over and over again. In short, its difficult (if not impossible) to practice those techniques and make them reactionary.

How much practice do you think you need biting and poking people in the eyes? For groin kicking you just need to practice your kicks to be powerful and accurate, you don't need to actually kick someone in the groin to practice it.

 

[Tez3]

When would a back-fist be used? - When you want to break someone's face. Joe Rogan seriously underestimates the effectiveness of a good back fist.

I love a good backfist, it's a very effective strike.

 

[drop bear]

When would a back-fist be used? - When you want to break someone's face. Joe Rogan seriously underestimates the effectiveness of a good back fist.

It leaves you open to a counter. If you backfist with say. Your right hand and I have my guard up the backfist will do nothing.

But this leaves the right side of your head open to a counter with my free hand.

A hook or a cross does not do this. Because you can cover your head with your free hand.

 

[drop bear]

ha ha ha.. I stand corrected. Those Russian fighters always messing up somebody's argument. I saw that video when I was looking for the MMA team fight video. Russian always has some crazy fight videos. That competition is about as close as you can get without anyone dying. lol no one has died doing it right?

Don't think so. But the point is there that the mechanics change in a different manner than just a kick boxing match that has eyegouges instead of punching. The dynamics change.

 

[drop bear]

How much practice do you think you need biting and poking people in the eyes? For groin kicking you just need to practice your kicks to be powerful and accurate, you don't need to actually kick someone in the groin to practice it.

Yes. The inner leg kick is good enough to get the timing for a groin kick.

 

[Hanzou]

How much practice do you think you need biting and poking people in the eyes? For groin kicking you just need to practice your kicks to be powerful and accurate, you don't need to actually kick someone in the groin to practice it.

Against someone trained, or someone on top of you bashing your face in, or a combination of both?

Quite a bit.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It leaves you open to a counter. If you backfist with say. Your right hand and I have my guard up the backfist will do nothing.

But this leaves the right side of your head open to a counter with my free hand.

It does not make any sense to strike, using any strike, to a target that is well covered. You can use a back fist to an open target, you can also open up a target by trapping or knocking away a hand in a guarding position first.

IA hook or a cross does not do this. Because you can cover your head with your free hand.

A hook or cross can be easily deflected from the outside without much impact on your arm, whist a back fist can only be blocked head on. There is no reason why you can not cover your head with your free hand whist doing a back fist and straight after the back fist your hand is basically in a guard position which does not happen with a hook or a cross where you have to retract it to the guard position.

 

[drop bear]

t does not make any sense to strike, using any strike, to a target that is well covered. You can use a back fist to an open target, you can also open up a target by trapping or knocking away a hand in a guarding position first.

You are not going to just get clean shots into someone's head unless they are crap. So I am working on this idea that they are going to be either well covered will counter my attacks or will be firing shots back. Reducing the amount of free shots that I get and increasing the risk of throwing each shot in the first place.

I really want to fire my attacks with the possibility that they will get blocked.

 

[drop bear]

A hook or cross can be easily deflected from the outside without much impact on your arm, whist a back fist can only be blocked head on. There is no reason why you can not cover your head with your free hand whist doing a back fist and straight after the back fist your hand is basically in a guard position which does not happen with a hook or a cross where you have to retract it to the guard position.

See how the right hand side is open to counter. This is the same side as that free hand that is not involved in blocking.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When would a back-fist be used? - When you want to break someone's face. Joe Rogan seriously underestimates the effectiveness of a good back fist.

We have other ways to throw a backfist other than just the standard trap/ backfist that most people see. Here are some variations of a Jow Ga backfist. Anyone that trains in a martial arts should understand that there are multiple ways to throw fist around.
I'll let others decide if any of these would be effective.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I really want to fire my attacks with the possibility that they will get blocked.

You can always feint or throw combinations, to get punches in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't care how well you think you can control the distance... you're eventually going to get cornered, you're going to get hit by the guy you didn't see, you're going to trip, etc and down you're going to go and you're going to need to know what to do.

There's no guarantee that any of that will happen. No one in the videos that posted tripped, even if you do trip it doesn't mean you are going down, people recover from stumbling all the time.

I wonder what the outcome would have been if he couldn't run backwards though. He ran backwards which allowed him to fight one on one.

This is the likely outcome if you go to the ground when fighting multiple people. One guy tries to hold you down while his pals come over to beat you in the face.

 

[drop bear]

You can always feint or throw combinations, to get punches in.

Yep.

 

[kuniggety]

There's no guarantee that any of that will happen. No one in the videos that posted tripped, even if you do trip it doesn't mean you are going down, people recover from stumbling all the time.

No, there isn't a guarantee. I was pointing out you should train for the worst and not the optimal.

This is the likely outcome if you go to the ground when fighting multiple people. One guy tries to hold you down while his pals come over to beat you in the face.

I agree. You seem bent on trying trying to pick out points of my posts to try to argue when, in reality, I'm mostly agreeing with you. Grappling is not good for multiple opponents. I think everyone should train striking. I just think it wise to also train grappling. Whether you're a boxer, JowGa practitioner, TKD master, etc, that striking expertise goes out the window as soon as you hit the ground.

I went into grappling as a person who has only ever done stand up style martial arts. I never even wrestled as a kid... I didn't know my head from my *** on the ground. I know lots of stand up martial artists who I've trained with that would kick my *** but I also know that, on the ground, they'd be as clueless as me. That's not the case anymore after studying BJJ after a couple of years. I won't sing the praises of BJJ; people should study catch wrestling, sambo, etc instead of leaving a gaping whole in their self-defense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No really. If I said all methods of eating ice cream are the same. Then it would be looked at sceptically.

I mean we could be comparing eating it with a spoon to flinging it at a wall and licking it off.

There will be methods that are consistantly more effective and efficient.

But we're not talking about that are we..... and the obvious hygiene issues aside.... the comparison is ludicrous....

 

[JowGaWolf]

people should study catch wrestling, sambo, etc instead of leaving a gaping whole in their self-defense

I agree with this completely from a self-defense point. I know that some TKD skools do a lot of point sparring and pickup up some really bad habits as a result of only focusing on point sparring Training for point sparring is fine just as long as the instructors make it known that's where they specialize in, instead of making the sales pitch that they do self-defense.

I was recently teaching a new student (from china) about how the shoot works and what to understand about defending against it. He immediately stated with confidence "why would anyone shoot on another person, because you can just knee them in the head or punch them in the head" He was totally unaware of just how quick and dangerous a shoot can be. The biggest problem he has is the mentality that there is no need to know how to deal with it because "you can just punch them in the face." I guess all of kung fu action movies gave birth to this. If a person is doing self-defense then they have to close the gap. If they are fighting for sport then it's not necessary to close the gap because the rules of the sport will have limits on what can be done and what can't be done.

 

[Tez3]

It leaves you open to a counter. If you backfist with say. Your right hand and I have my guard up the backfist will do nothing.

But this leaves the right side of your head open to a counter with my free hand.

A hook or a cross does not do this. Because you can cover your head with your free hand.

The backfist is no different to a hook or a cross, of course you can cover your head with your free hand. Not sure what you think it is. Your pic is not how we do it, we never leave an arm down, ever, and a spinning back fist is magic.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The backfist is no different to a hook or a cross, of course you can cover your head with your free hand. Not sure what you think it is. Your pic is not how we do it, we never leave an arm down, ever, and a spinning back fist is magic.

Oh yes.. the spinning backfist. How could I forget that one. That's the most famous one of all See mark (0:37)

Even at 62 years old, the spinning back fist is deadly.

 

[Steve]

I'm pretty sure that we've seen some pretty effective use of spinning techniques in the UFC, including the spinning backfist.

Are we discussing things in context? I ask because, warts and all, I don't see Joe Rogan bashing specific techniques, particularly ones we've seen used with some success at a high level within MMA.