Are you referring to internal rotation of the upper arm within the shoulder socket?
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Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
Are you referring to internal rotation of the upper arm within the shoulder socket?
Was this something you learnt specifically in Lo Kwai wck? or was it from your Yip Man wck teachers?
Good question .
In Lo Kwai's WC skeleton and tendon usage is specifically focused on. Also meridians etc to a lesser degree. The WC is internal meaning a focus on soft also internal means use of skeleton and tendons as opposed to raw strength of muscles. However these ideas also appear to different degrees in different versions of Yip Man WC.
The internal usage is difficult to teach to large groups of public students since not everyone will get it and understand it the same way or have the athletic ability to do it with out a great deal of personal attention.. Sometimes it is so difficult getting someone to do it that teachers just go to a short cut that gets enough of the effect that a person can fight well.
The stance is a great example. A cheat can be a stance wider than the shoulders . It helps in dealing with incoming force but you can do even better using a normal stance if you are using your skeleton properly.
here is something I found in Kenneth Chung’s wing chun which is very similar to what you described above
“The fixed, in-turned elbows (Mai Zhang), extended slight away and in front of the body (the long bridge), serve as a fulcrum behind which the up-right but rooted body can push (when moving forward). They, also, provide an axis along which the arms can rotate up and down in a virtual (forward intended) screwing motion (Cantonese: Bon Sau). Any frontal pushing action against or weight on the arms will be absorbed by the fixed in-turned elbow, channeled into the body, into the legs, and down to the ground. Any push of the legs against the ground in a forward movement (with the body in a rooted up-right position) will transmit “force” through the same path, expressed in a punch or any hand gesture. This dynamic, two-way energy transmission (generation and absorption) is halted when the elbows are turn out or not turned in (Cantonese: Song Zhang). The concept of Zhang Dai Lik or “under elbow strength” describes, at once, the weight down the elbow as well as its central function in the transmitting of forward energy generated by body movement and the ab- sorbing of incoming force down the arm. (The distance from the tip of the fingers/fist to the body remains constant, creating a fixed and protected zone around the body, an area an opponent needs to penetrate in a fight). Incidentally, the turned-in elbows and the long bridge position together serve as a protective bar- rier between an incoming punch to the mid-body section.”
what’s your opinion?
Martial D
Senior Master
Keep your hands up if you wanna stay pretty.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
In my opinion, that hook would be better used to strike the back of his elbow or his wrist. That potentially takes his arm out of the fight, if you land it well, and takes a lot of the fight out of him. At that point, either the fight is over, or you are able to make your escape, or you follow with another strike to an exposed target such as the face or body since his arm is dropped, and end it in that way.One clip can only show one example.
Here is a different example that
- You use a hook punch and try to grab your opponent's wrist, your opponent rotates his arm to avoid contact, and hook punch back at you.
- You change your hook into a back fist, arm wrap.
When you throw a hook punch as a set up, you have to expect different responds (either make contact, or doesn't make contact).
But to purposely swing it high In order to bait him to move in a way to make him vulnerable to another entry, is a lost opportunity in my opinion. He may not take the bait, you may not get to use the entry you wanted, and you just wasted effort. I think it overcomplicates the encounter. I actually feel that a lot of people overcomplicate fighting. It doesn’t need to be complicated. People over-think it all and devise complex strategies that are probably irrelevant in most cases. Perhaps in a competition scenario where you know your opponent is highly trained, and the competitors are watching video and studying each other in preparation for the fight, then some of that complexity makes sense. But on the street, keep it simple and direct.
Use what he gives you. Hurt his arm. When the arm is then out of the way, hurt his head or his body. Hurt whatever he gives you.
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- You throw a right hook punch. Your opponent rotates his left arm to avoid contact, and left hook punch back at you.
- You change your right hook punch into a right back fist, arm wrap.
Your right hook, right back fist can be used to set up "arm wrap".
Your left hand will have the following options at this moment.
1. Left cross.
2. Left uppercut.
3. Left overhand.
4. Left hook.
It depends on where and how your opponent's right arm is doing at that moment. As long as you can knock your opponent down, any option will be a good option.
This is why the following 4 combos are part of my training:
- right hook, right back fist, left cross
- right hook, right back fist, left uppercut
- right hook, right back fist, left overhand
- right hook, right back fist, left hook
IMO, the striking art is more interested to train this way - use 1, 2 to set up 3.
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wckf92
Master of Arts
two thumbs up! In John's example above...he has done 4 or 5 movements and hasn't yet dealt any definitive blow. IMO, this is not the way of Wing Chun.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Lots of movement to try and set something up. Just hit what is there. Other opportunities will follow.- You throw a right hook punch. Your opponent rotates his left arm to avoid contact, and left hook punch back at you.
- You change your right hook punch into a right back fist, arm wrap.
Your right hook, right back fist can be used to set up "arm wrap".
Your left hand will have the following options at this moment.
1. Left cross.
2. Left uppercut.
3. Left overhand.
4. Left hook.
It depends on where and how your opponent's right arm is doing at that moment. As long as you can knock your opponent down, any option will be a good option.
This is why the following 4 combos are part of my training:
- right hook, right back fist, left cross
- right hook, right back fist, left uppercut
- right hook, right back fist, left overhand
- right hook, right back fist, left hook
IMO, the striking art is more interested to train this way - use 1, 2 to set up 3.
It's very difficult to integrate striking art and throwing art if you don't have a plan. Most of the throw will require a leading arm wrapping (such as a hip throw).
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Maybe you don’t need throwing art? Maybe how you are trying to Mix them isn’t optimal. Sounds to me like you want to get into a throw. Maybe change your mental processing on this and just look for what works, whether a throw or a strike, without trying for specifically one or the other. Do whatever presents, even if it’s not what you hoped for.
It's better to make something to happen than to wait for something to happen.
wckf92
Master of Arts
I don't think @Flying Crane is saying that at all...I think what he is saying is pick one style/method. This is a wing chun forum and IMO what you have demo'd isn't WC. If throwing arts is where your skill is...then great, use that vs trying to merge the two.
I agree with you that its best to make something happen....but in a "wing chun way", not a throwing art way.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Something has already happened: he gave you his arm. Destroy it. THEN destroy his head or body, when he can’t defend with his arm.
you are ignoring the opportunity that he gave you, and are trying to set up something else that requires extra positioning and baiting. IMO, that is a less-optimal way to go.
grappling has an advantage in sparring: you can dial the intensity up or down just to the point where it works, without injury. Grappling seeks to control the opponent, and that can be done without serious injury to the opponent, if you are skilled. Striking has a disadvantage in sparring: if you dial back the intensity, your opponent can shrug it off and ignore it. There isn’t as much middle ground. For striking to really work, you need to be willing to hit with commitment and damage your target. That isn’t so good for sparring.
If you have been sparring a lot with grappling, then perhaps there is hesitancy to not hit so much, so your partners are not injured. That is understandable: you should not injure your partners. But you need to understand the difference in what is needed to make it work in sparring,vs. fighting/self-defense. In fighting, if you strike, you MUST be willing to strike to destroy. Otherwise you will be ineffectual and you will not defend yourself. If you mostly of exclusively grapple in your sparring, you may not be used to seeing the obvious targets for striking.
I don’t think anyone gets to do either 100%.
Didn't you do that in about sixth grade? You know, trading punches to the shoulder???
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Didn't you do that in about sixth grade? You know, trading punches to the shoulder???
Yeah I did. Pity all these years I never realised the fight ending potential of that move.
I assume OP also wanted to discuss
- complete MA,
- long range game, and
- grappling game,
in this thread.
When I talk about:
- right hook, right back fist, left cross
- right hook, right back fist, left uppercut
- right hook, right back fist, left overhand
- right hook, right back fist, left hook
I'm only talking about a pure striking game. Did someone say that hook punch exist in the WC system? How can you train hook punch without training the back fist?
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