Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Dirty Dog]

I’m not picturing that. Maybe it’s just a technique I don’t own. The change of direction for the arm would be slower for me than using the gathered body tension with the other arm.

Annnnd we're back to the original question. Is it that way because you don't practice it, or do you not practice it because that's how it is?
I think it's probably some of both. Humans being humans, things don't work exactly the same from one body to another. We train, and find certain movements that feel more natural to us. Odds are, especially early on, that we will practice those more. Later, we may make a conscious effort to practice the less natural movements, but will they ever feel as natural?
And that's ignoring the impact of time. There are certainly things which felt much more natural at 20 than 60.

 

[geezer]

I’m not picturing that. Maybe it’s just a technique I don’t own. The change of direction for the arm would be slower for me than using the gathered body tension with the other arm.

Dirty Dog and Crane can picture it ...and so can I. Think Escrima ...or any art where you hold a weapon in one hand and can use tight figure-eight loop powered by body torque. You swing-in with a right hook and miss...so you loop in a tight figure-eight and bring your back/downward fist, forearm or elbow to bear on your target.

Heck pick up a bottle or a rock and give it a try!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Dirty Dog and Crane can picture it ...and so can I. Think Escrima ...or any art where you hold a weapon in one hand and can use tight figure-eight loop powered by body torque. You swing-in with a right hook and miss...so you loop in a tight figure-eight and bring your back/downward fist, forearm or elbow to bear on your target.

Heck pick up a bottle or a rock and give it a try!

With a weapon (especially a stick), I can picture it. The figure 8 doesn't make sense to me with an arm. It feels like a weak return, especially if I stay at a backhand position - a bit better if I come back at a chop. Like I said, maybe just a technique I don't own. (My FMA experience never touched empty hand, so it doesn't provide a reference point on this.)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

figure-eight loop powered by body torque.

The dagger S cut is also another good example. You cut your opponent's belly, your opponent dodges it, you then cut his throat.

 

[wckf92]

Think Escrima ...or any art where you hold a weapon in one hand and can use tight figure-eight loop powered by body torque. You swing-in with a right hook and miss...so you loop in a tight figure-eight and bring your back/downward fist, forearm or elbow to bear on your target.

Yup. It is in the forms.

 

[hunschuld]

here is something I found in Kenneth Chung’s wing chun which is very similar to what you described above

“The fixed, in-turned elbows (Mai Zhang), extended slight away and in front of the body (the long bridge), serve as a fulcrum behind which the up-right but rooted body can push (when moving forward). They, also, provide an axis along which the arms can rotate up and down in a virtual (forward intended) screwing motion (Cantonese: Bon Sau). Any frontal pushing action against or weight on the arms will be absorbed by the fixed in-turned elbow, channeled into the body, into the legs, and down to the ground. Any push of the legs against the ground in a forward movement (with the body in a rooted up-right position) will transmit “force” through the same path, expressed in a punch or any hand gesture. This dynamic, two-way energy transmission (generation and absorption) is halted when the elbows are turn out or not turned in (Cantonese: Song Zhang). The concept of Zhang Dai Lik or “under elbow strength” describes, at once, the weight down the elbow as well as its central function in the transmitting of forward energy generated by body movement and the ab- sorbing of incoming force down the arm. (The distance from the tip of the fingers/fist to the body remains constant, creating a fixed and protected zone around the body, an area an opponent needs to penetrate in a fight). Incidentally, the turned-in elbows and the long bridge position together serve as a protective bar- rier between an incoming punch to the mid-body section.”

what’s your opinion?

I have never met KC or any of his advanced students so don't know what he teaches but reads like part of the same thing.

 

[hunschuld]

When you throw a left hook punch, your opponent rotates his right arm to avoid contact, and throw a right hook punch back at your head, what will you do?

If you train "left hook, left back fist" combo, you can avoid this from happening.

I think the gentleman eating canvas is caught doing several things wrong. Weak hook attempt is the second. Not sure I would call it a hook Dropping his hands the third. . Not sure the hook to backfist would be of any help in this case but I am nitpicking. You do have to bring your hand back to center after it has crossed the center in some fashion. Always cover your open areas

 

[hunschuld]

Annnnd we're back to the original question. Is it that way because you don't practice it, or do you not practice it because that's how it is?
I think it's probably some of both. Humans being humans, things don't work exactly the same from one body to another. We train, and find certain movements that feel more natural to us. Odds are, especially early on, that we will practice those more. Later, we may make a conscious effort to practice the less natural movements, but will they ever feel as natural?
And that's ignoring the impact of time. There are certainly things which felt much more natural at 20 than 60.

This is the heart of so many issues. How do you train. I spent years training what to do if I miss. It is a focus of what I always taught students. Hooks can leave you in a bad position if you miss so you must have a true no thought reflex to deal with that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You do have to bring your hand back to center after it has crossed the center in some fashion. Always cover your open areas

When your opponent's arm is rotated (avoid contact), you try to meet his arm half way. Since you make your opponent's arm to rotate (by your hook punch, downward parry, or wrist grab), you are 1 step ahead of hm.

- The hook punch (or downward parry) is to protect your center from outside in.
- The back fist (or uppercut) is to protect your center from inside out.

If you use hook punch, uppercut combo instead, since the uppercut is similar to the WC Tan Shou, by using Tan Shou to protect the center from inside out is a logic move.

 

[drop bear]

With a weapon (especially a stick), I can picture it. The figure 8 doesn't make sense to me with an arm. It feels like a weak return, especially if I stay at a backhand position - a bit better if I come back at a chop. Like I said, maybe just a technique I don't own. (My FMA experience never touched empty hand, so it doesn't provide a reference point on this.)

I actually do that punch as a gag. It is not to bad as a hammer fist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With a weapon (especially a stick), I can picture it. The figure 8 doesn't make sense to me with an arm. It feels like a weak return, especially if I stay at a backhand position - a bit better if I come back at a chop. Like I said, maybe just a technique I don't own. (My FMA experience never touched empty hand, so it doesn't provide a reference point on this.)

What do you mean "My FMA experience never touched empty hand"?

- A hook punch can be a downward parry (or wrist grab).
- A back fist (or uppercut) can be an arm wrap.

Both don't require that much power. After your can wrap your opponent's leading arm, your other hand can punch on your opponent's face as hard as you can with power (since he is not going anywhere).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many advantages if you can control your opponent's leading arm.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I actually do that punch as a gag. It is not to bad as a hammer fist.

I assume the hammer fist would be about the same shoulder/arm angle as the chop, which feels a lot better to me in this context than a back fist position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What do you mean "My FMA experience never touched empty hand"?

The FMA training I have was entirely with weapons.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To use WC Tan Shou to block a hook punch is commonly used in the WC system.

To change from Tan Shou to arm wrap is natural follow up.

 

[Jens]

The upper arm must rotate into the shoulder. Most people allow the upper arm to pull out of the shoulder

What’s the chest mechanics involved with this?

 

[geezer]

The FMA training I have was entirely with weapons.

Me too. But hands is weapons!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Me too. But hands is weapons!

Agreed. Just a different mechanic in some ways with the additional hinging point (using the wrist with a stick, for instance).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But hands is weapons!

Agree! For each and every open hand technique, you can always find an equivalent weapon technique (or the other way around).

Open hand technique - comb hair and palm strike.

Sword technique - deflect and chop.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here is another "hook, back fist" combo clip.