Is Self-Defense Spiritual?

[windwalker099]

None of the master's I've met talked about being a good person or spirituality.
they did not even mention "wude" (武德) "martial morality" or "martial ethics."
They did test for this, in various ways, for the most part, did not teach those they felt were bad actors..

Although gang members and others did seek out various teachers to learn skill sets, or the teachers themselves noted for skill sets were used by the gangs as "enforcers"

Just us in the military. There is a code of conduct attempting to ensure the skill sets used in war, are used in what is thought to be a moral and ethical way....in killing other's

 

[isshinryuronin]

the suffix "do" (道) "way" added to the name indicating a practice thought to embody spiritual development alongside the physical techniques.

I don't see "do" as being spiritual (in the sense of spirit being something ethereal or mystical, some outside force or concept that one internalizes - my definition), but rather something a bit more concrete. Funakoshi wrote Karate-do, My Way of Life and that title I think best describes "do" - the way you walk the path of everyday life using the concepts and methodologies of karate. "Do" is dedication, commitment, respect, self-discipline and improvement and morality.

Funakoshi's book came out in 1923 (don't know when "do" was first used, but this made it popular), the time karate was being established into the Japanese school system. Karate started to change from pure self-defense (jutsu) to a system of self-development and behavioral model as befitting an educational venue molding boys and girls. This grew into the modern popular view of karate.

While karate-jutsu developed many of the virtues of "do," they were a natural by-product of the art, not a major focus of it as in karate-do.

One can insert/visualize spirituality into their karate practice, like anything else, if they wish, but it's not an inherent part of it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

None of the master's I've met talked about being a good person or spirituality.
they did not even mention "wude" (武德) "martial morality" or "martial ethics."
They did test for this, in various ways, for the most part, did not teach those they felt were bad actors..

Although gang members and others did seek out various teachers to learn skill sets, or the teachers themselves noted for skill sets were used by the gangs as "enforcers"

Just us in the military. There is a code of conduct attempting to ensure the skill sets used in war, are used in what is thought to be a moral and ethical way....in killing other's

Sifu Woo was a Tong enforcer in the 1950s era.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is what I would see as one of the examples of warrior's spirit from both fighters. This is why I don't understand why people see violence as all bad that needs to be purged from the earth.

Listen to what he says about stepping into the ring. His answer is same answers that I have about sparring and competition in general. For me that's when I'm most at peace. It's the only time in my life when I'm truly "living in the present" without any thoughts beyond what is happening right there and right now.

None of this comes out in any Philosphical stuff just doesn't capture this stuff. Half of the time it tries to send us to peace vs embracing violence and skill development. Embracing violence doesn't mean we have to turn into a monster.

I wish I could say it doesn't mean we have to turn into predators, but human's by default are predators, which is why you should protect yourself at all times and unfortunately people are also jerks.

 

[Badhabits]

You wanna get some interesting/unusual ideas about "the state humans call peace" read some of Frank Herbert's books. People seeking after peace in one form or another have caused an absolute crap ton of violence and problems.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't see "do" as being spiritual (in the sense of spirit being something ethereal or mystical, some outside force or concept that one internalizes - my definition)

depends on which culture one is using as their base of understanding.

general observations

In western cultures Spirituality: Based on personal fulfillment, connection to a higher power, or ethical living.
In eastern cultures Spirituality: Primarily aims for enlightenment, the realization of one’s true nature.

Each correct depending on the fame work one views it from...with some overlap, due to modernization, interaction between cultures...

Depending on the type and bases of the practice very different end points..

"Do" is dedication, commitment, respect, self-discipline and improvement and morality.

Like CMA's change of focus, this term was brought into use, during a period of social change...

One can insert/visualize spirituality into their karate practice, like anything else, if they wish, but it's not an inherent part of it.

Depends...For Japanese based arts, don't see how its possible to escape the traditions of the art while still retaining the essences of it.

Have talked with Olympic level Judo players expressing their disappointment with their practice's based on competitive considerations instead of what they felt where the traditional values of the art.

This shift has also occurred in CMA, although some old masters continued to teach traditional methods "under the table so to speak" preserving the skill sets as part of their cultural heritage, despite societal changes that shifted the focus of the art.

 

[isshinryuronin]

For Japanese based arts, don't see how its possible to escape the traditions of the art while still retaining the essences of it.

What do you mean by "traditions" and "essences"?

 

[windwalker099]

What do you mean by "traditions" and "essences"?

what arts would you be referring to ?

lets take "Kyudo" the art of archery
One could say the tradition is archery, based on the essence of Zen..

"Zen in the art of archery."

"He then gave us his instructions: "Now you do the same, but remember that archery is not meant to strengthen
the muscles.

When drawing the string you should not exert the full strength of your body, but must learn to let only your two
hands do the work, while your arm and shoulder muscles remain relaxed, as though they looked on impassively.

Only when you can do this will you have fulfilled one of the conditions that make the drawing and the shooting ˆspiritual˜."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Only when you can do this will you have fulfilled one of the conditions that make the drawing and the shooting ˆspiritual˜."

When you hip throw your opponent, you hold on to his waist and won't let his body to touch the ground. You hold your opponent like holding a baby. That's throwing "spiritual".

Those who like to talk about self-defense, like to talk about spiritual. They think they are the good guys, and everybody else are all bad guys.

Those who talk about combat, don't talk about spiritual. You want to be the one who is standing. You don't want to be the one who is down. There is no spiritual in it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

what arts would you be referring to ?

lets take "Kyudo" the art of archery
One could say the tradition is archery, based on the essence of Zen..

"Zen in the art of archery."

"He then gave us his instructions: "Now you do the same, but remember that archery is not meant to strengthen
the muscles.

When drawing the string you should not exert the full strength of your body, but must learn to let only your two
hands do the work, while your arm and shoulder muscles remain relaxed, as though they looked on impassively.

Only when you can do this will you have fulfilled one of the conditions that make the drawing and the shooting ˆspiritual˜."

Kyudo is a unique art, perhaps more akin to flower arranging or tea ceremony than karate. . It is not a combat art (kyujutsu) nowadays (except in the rare koryu dojo), not since the mid 1800's. There are no tactics, no opponent, no offense or defense, no victory or defeat. Most schools I think have thus far avoided the sport competition aspect (though this is likely changing) as it seems contrary to kyudo spirit. There is some variation here amongst kyudo styles.

It was resurrected in the late 1800's and in its new incarnation the goal is spiritual self-development. Zen does play a part in most kyudo schools. Hitting the target is not the goal. The process of drawing the bow with proper mental and technical attitude is the goal. If this process is done well, it is thought that the arrow will find its target. It is process oriented, not application oriented. It's a different kind of thing from karate and other combat arts.

 

[Same Trick]

I’m not familiar with Hop Gar. It wasn’t meant as an indictment. Maybe I read too much into it. In any case, no disrespect was intended to @isshinryuronin. My apologies if I offended.

Actually it’s the first time I read/heard of that what ’isshinryuronin’ wrote as something followed in Karate,Okinawan or mainland Japanese.
perhaps it’s a specific just for Isshin-ryu ?

 

[windwalker099]

It's a different kind of thing from karate and other combat arts.

If you feel it is so, then it is so...

for you....

Was once a soldier, training for, practicing the art of war....
We may have different ideas about what is a combat art or not...

Do enjoy reading your post...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We may have different ideas about what is a combat art or not...

A: Combat art is as simple as "fist meet face".
B: No! Combat art is self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, philosophy, spiritual, performance, health, world peace, ...
A: @#$%^&*(
B: (*&^%$#@

 

[Same Trick]

None of the master's I've met talked about being a good person or spirituality.
they did not even mention "wude" (武德) "martial morality" or "martial ethics."
They did test for this, in various ways, for the most part, did not teach those they felt were bad actors..

Although gang members and others did seek out various teachers to learn skill sets, or the teachers themselves noted for skill sets were used by the gangs as "enforcers"

many/most skilled teachers here in China like good spirits, and quite often so.

 

[Same Trick]

I don't see "do" as being spiritual (in the sense of spirit being something ethereal or mystical, some outside force or concept that one internalizes - my definition), but rather something a bit more concrete. Funakoshi wrote Karate-do, My Way of Life and that title I think best describes "do" - the way you walk the path of everyday life using the concepts and methodologies of karate. "Do" is dedication, commitment, respect, self-discipline and improvement and morality.

Funakoshi's book came out in 1923 (don't know when "do" was first used, but this made it popular), the time karate was being established into the Japanese school system. Karate started to change from pure self-defense (jutsu) to a system of self-development and behavioral model as befitting an educational venue molding boys and girls. This grew into the modern popular view of karate.

While karate-jutsu developed many of the virtues of "do," they were a natural by-product of the art, not a major focus of it as in karate-do.

One can insert/visualize spirituality into their karate practice, like anything else, if they wish, but it's not an inherent part of it.

Kendo was probably first to change into Kendo followed by Judo, Funakoshi realized or because of his friendship with Jigiro Kano was suggested to add “do” to karate so to fit the new modern Japanese way’s

 

[Same Trick]

Sifu Woo was a Tong enforcer in the 1950s era.

My Tongbeiquan teacher here in China used to run an enforcer business.

 

[windwalker099]

A: Combat art is as simple as "fist meet face".
B: No! Combat art is self-cultivation, inner peace, culture study, philosophy, spiritual, performance, health, world peace, ...
A: @#$%^&*(
B: (*&^%$#@

The OP posted the following

So considering we get a free pass from the ancients and society allows it, does that mean it is truly acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense? Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

The OP put together what he consider's a valid summation,
supporting his rhetorical questions, asking others for their opinions.



Others have responded by addressing different points presented, sharing their own thoughts supported by their life experiences and practices. Most practice what could be called martial arts with combat origins.

These practices, are different from the way current wars are fought.
For the most part, people do not die in the practice of martial arts as they do in the practice for war.

To practice for combat, vs combative arts is not the same

If some feel they are the same, for them they are.
Some may "know" as I do they are not...

 

[isshinryuronin]

Actually it’s the first time I read/heard of that what ’isshinryuronin’ wrote as something followed in Karate,Okinawan or mainland Japanese.
perhaps it’s a specific just for Isshin-ryu ?

What "something" are you referring to? I'd be happy to clarify.

 

[windwalker099]

My Tongbeiquan teacher here in China used to run an enforcer business.

Lion’s Roar Kuen Ging Theories on Fist Fighting By Ng Siu Jong

addresses some of the questions asked here.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Kendo was probably first to change into Kendo followed by Judo, Funakoshi realized or because of his friendship with Jigiro Kano was suggested to add “do” to karate so to fit the new modern Japanese way’s

Funakoshi's book came out in 1923 (don't know when "do" was first used, but this made it popular)

The term, "karate-do", was officially recognized in 1933 by the Dai Nippon Butokukai, Japan's major MA governing body at the time, although some dojo in Okinawa still used "karate-jutsu" or even the older word, "toudi."