Is Self-Defense Spiritual?

[windwalker099]

Taiji people like to talk about borrow force, yield, sink, sticky, follow, ... Wrestles don't talk about those. Wrestlers just do it in their daily wrestling.

It's the same...

In China, I was told not to even think about it—just practice and practice. After a time, you will know it.

My teacher would mention one word before I left to go back to the US, allowing me a year to think and work on it.
He would check my progress when I came back, if it was not correct, the work would continue.
He wouldn't say if was correct or not directly,

I would know when I was leaving, he would mention something else.

Online, it's often difficult to overcome the differences in experiences and practices.
The differences themselves become the subject of the conversation rather than how to do it better.

 

[marvin8]

Taiji people like to talk about borrow force, yield, sink, sticky, follow, ... Wrestles don't talk about those. Wrestlers just do it in their daily wrestling.

High level wrestlers talk, teach, train and wrestle using these concepts. Christian spends over 40 minutes teaching not to use force, speed or power to enter, hand fighting, borrow force, timing and leading opponent to an arm drag takedown.

 

[JowGaWolf]

In Chinese culture and religion, self-defense can be seen both as a low-tech endeavor (such as farming, fieldwork or bodyguard work) and also, especially in terms of cultivation culture and religion, as a means to bettering one's self and even to achieve enlightenment. Across Taoism and Buddism we find references to a culture of self-development based around a sort of fusion between yoga, qigong, philosophy, and martial arts.

I think the point should be made that as a sovereign spiritual entity (someone with a soul) it is important to be able to defend your self in the physical plane while still understanding that the other person is a sovereign spiritual entity in the same sense you are. Then, the removal of ego can be accomplished via the drive towards non-violent martial arts and the seeds of enlightenment will have been planted, leading towards the practitioner's karma being changed by a lifetime of practice.

Another aspect to the removal of violence from defense is the foundation of a society; a society aims to keep it's population safe. So when engaging in self-defense it is important to avoid cruelty and "excessive violence" whenever possible. The very definition of excessive becomes whatever society allows to seep through the cracks. If someone comes to attack you, this is already a violation of society. You are only allowed to defend yourself because you are able to point to society and say "You failed me;" in any other case your actions, in that they overstep society's right to protect you for you, are to be seen as excessive.

Tao Te Ching Chapter 36 seems to discuss a type of restraint from violence as in fact the pinnacle of kung fu; "It is better to maim than kill, it is better to break than to maim, it is better to strike than to break, it is better to push than to strike, it is better to throw out (push) than to strike, and the highest level is when the opponent does not feel the action of the push against him." Heavily paraphrased, of course.

So considering we get a free pass from the ancients and society allows it, does that mean it is truly acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense? Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

I think you are trying to make things fit together as one when in reality they are not the same thing. It's been my experience that those who train in violence are often the ones least willing to apply it for any reason. Those who don't train violence are the ones who seem to be eager to apply it without understanding the consequences of it.

If I had to put in short words. Those who train violence know the monster that they could be, and as a result choose not to be a monster for trivial matters. Those who don't train violence often brag about the violence that they can do and fail to understand the consequences of their violence until it's too late.

I don't think this is spiritual. I think this is just the nature of training violence and controlling violent behavior within ourselves. I train violence but when I train, I take my sparring partner's safety into consideration. I understand the reality of what I train. I can hurt and I can be hurt. Nothing I train is used for kindness, so I must bring my own kindness. It boils down to this. The more real fights you have been in, the less you want to be in them. Those who have experienced real violence don't have romanticized ideals about what violence is.

So considering we get a free pass from the ancients and society allows it, does that mean it is truly acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense? Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

It's acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense for two reasons.
1. People are violent
2. Spirits are violent.

Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way? Sometimes, but not always.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Old karate saying: If you break my skin, I break your muscle. You break my muscle, I break your bone. You break my bone, I break your organ. Quite the opposite of your quote, which is nice, but oftentimes a luxury we can't afford to take a chance on.

Is not preserving one's life in harmony with human nature? Also, if a violent attacker is out of harmony with society, is it not our duty to stop him and put society a bit more back in balance?

No. True violence is not dissuaded by talk. If you evade, it will pursue and eventually reach you. It must be defeated. Look at how Hitler easily took over most of Europe. They tried talk and then convinced themselves he would not come for them. Neither strategy worked.

There is a lot of about the OP post that contradict. I'm curious to see if others can spot it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I asked

The way is hibernating in all endeavors.

As for martial traditions they’re probably the most powerful as way to spiritual “enlightenment” especially if the tradition requires participation on the battlefield .

Yeah, being punched in the mouth gives an entirely different outlook on the world. Being on the battlefield even more so. Hardships are often the fastest route to spiritually "enlightenment." Which is probably why many of those who were enlightened became so, after experiencing hardship.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Mmmm....I tend to think a lot of the peaceful/philosophical stuff tied into martial arts comes from government propaganda. The Hagakure for example....
And then religious beliefs being tied in.
I've never found anything spiritual about self defense. Agree that the training can be spiritual, but I don't find anything inherently spiritual about it. More that spirituality can be sort of an add on.

Spiritual Teachings and Martial Arts are two different things. I don't know why so many try to make them as one. There are some self-realizations that one goes through when training martial arts. For example, Getting a good punch or kick in the face hurts even when it's not at its hardest.

Self Realization - on an animal level. While these are dogs, I've seen humans go through the same thing. Mouth gets them in trouble.

The big dog determined the level of violence needed. But humans make similar actions in human all Spiritual, when they aren't. I don't need martial arts to be spiritual. That's that what martial arts is for.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So all this talk of "no violence" really doesn't resonate with me. War is hell, humans are violent creatures, and hokey New Age peacenik martial arts are really, in my opinion, a modern contrivance. People of want to believe martial arts lead to peace, I think that is totally backwards.

Sign me up. lol. It leads to peace if I only win lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

“If you don’t have the spiritual warrior in you, you’ll never be a fighter. I don’t care how big or strong you are" - Cus D'Amato

This is a different type of spiritualism than what the OP is talking about. It's not non-violent spiritualism.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Usually, people like to talk, don't usually do it. People always do it, don't like to talk much about it.

I feel the same way. It seems to me you have caught on to the same thing I am seeing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

High level wrestlers talk, teach, train and wrestle using these concepts. Christian spends over 40 minutes teaching not to use force, speed or power to enter, hand fighting, borrow force, timing and leading opponent to an arm drag takedown.

This isn't what Kung Fu Wang is talking about. There's no deep philosophical or spiritual talk about one's ego, nor is there any talk about not being violent in that video.

I know when someone has fighting experience because I start to hear things that are similar among those who have fighting experience.

I know when someone has spiritual experience because I start to hear things that are similar among those who have spiritual experience.

I do not hear or see any of these experiences except from the people who are responding. Fighting and Spiritual things I know from first-hand experience, and I have no doubt about what I experienced in these.

People who don't know how to fight tend to "Try too hard."
People who haven't had spiritual enlightenment then to "Try too hard." And both are like what Kung Fu Wan is saying about it being "common sense." It really isn't that complicated. The philosophical side of it makes things more difficult than they need to be. When philosophy becomes too difficult then it gets warp and begins to have an abnormal number of contradictions. The first post of this threat is full of contradictions, misinterpretations, and the possibility of not taking into consideration the context in which things are said.

You showed a video of wrestlers talking and then doing. You think you saw 40 minutes of him talking but what you saw were cuts to the video. The activities and lessons that he's sharing are going to take more than 40 minutes doing the activities.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't want to offend anyone but I agree that a lot of this martial philosophy is hypocritical, given that Japan, China, to a broader extent all of Asia is one of the most violent, war torn areas in all of human history.

So I think it's ironic that people buy into these "martial virtue" type signals, in places where billions have died violently. It's a contradictory pattern. If Taoism and Buddhist ideals actually worked as written, you would think Japan and China would be the most peaceful countries. But that never actually happened.

All of this was thanks to Martial Arts. We are studying the same techniques they used to commit violence. None of these originally have their roots in Marital Arts. Which is why I say they are not the same things. Spiritualism and Martial arts are 2 different things. There is no Spiritualism that is recognized as a Martial Art. There is no Martial art that is recognized as Spiritualism.

Taoism and Buddhism exists only because the violence exists.
Taoism was created to address the following.

1. Taoism arose during a time of social and political upheaval in ancient China. It provided a way for individuals to find inner peace and harmony amidst the chaos.

2. Taoism offered a unique perspective on life, emphasizing simplicity, humility, and living in accordance with the natural order. It provided an alternative to the more rigid and structured philosophies of the time, such as Confucianism.

3. Taoism incorporated various spiritual practices, including meditation, qigong, and alchemy, aimed at achieving balance, health, and longevity. It also emphasized the cultivation of inner virtues and the pursuit of spiritual enlightenment.

4. Taoism integrated local religious rituals and beliefs, making it accessible and relevant to the people of ancient China. This helped it gain widespread acceptance and influence.

Lookup Buddhism and you'll discover that similar conflicts were going on, and similar solutions were founded.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Chinese culture and religion, self-defense can be seen both as a low-tech endeavor ...

What will you do if someone says, "I'll kill you next time when I see you."

One guy said this to one of my students. My student cornered that guy in front of that guy's house. My student pulled out a gun, touched that guy's head, and pulled the trigger. There was no bullet in the chamber. My student said, "Next time when I see you, there will be bullet in my gun." For the rest of my student's life (my student was killed in a car accident many years later), that guy tried to hide away from my student.

One guy said this to me (He and I dated the same girl. He was a gang member, and I was not). One day I cornered him in front of the girl's house. I said, "You said you want to kill me next time we meet. Let's take care of this today once for all." That guy said, "Loot at how big and strong you are, and how small and weak I'm. How can you take advantage on me? (those were the exact words that he said)" I left that guy, and that guy tried to run away from me for the rest of his life.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Spiritual Teachings and Martial Arts are two different things.

I believe this is true, but one can have spirit in MA without being "spiritual." One must have a fighting spirit, a resolve (courage, confidence and perseverance) and a clear mind. IMO, that's about as far as it goes.

One may discover some spirituality from long, dedicated practice of MA, but this is a result of MA - it's not a prerequisite or part of MA itself.

There is some element of Tao in kung fu, but this is mostly a philosophy of yin/yang that, from what I know, was imposed on the execution of the art (balancing hard and soft, though mostly emphasizing the soft) around the 1600's. Nagamine's Matsubayashi karate has a definite slant towards Zen, but this too is an addition, a fairly recent one, after the fact. To my knowledge, it does not influence the actual execution of the art but treated as a parallel curriculum.

Almost by definition, spirituality is a personal thing and so may take many forms and applications, to be inserted into anything the individual wishes. So, if one wants spirituality in their MA, they are free to do so. But it's not an inherent part of it.

 

[Same Trick]

There is a lot of about the OP post that contradict. I'm curious to see if others can spot it.

There is a lot of about the OP post that contradict. I'm curious to see if others can spot it.

The OP refer to chapter 36 of the Tao te Ching which quite clearly talk of opposites but in a way how they are dependent on each other, I can’t get my head into if that’s what the OP writes, the OP text (as they usually seem to do)talks a little here a little there

 

[marvin8]

This isn't what Kung Fu Wang is talking about. There's no deep philosophical or spiritual talk about one's ego, nor is there any talk about not being violent in that video.

The wrestling video I posted covered what KFW was talking about in his two sentences I quoted.

Right, I wasn't addressing spirituality. Although in the UFC, there are some religious fighters that share prayers in the ring after their fights. Belal Muhammed is the current UFC Welterweight Champion and trains with Khabib Murgamedov a former UFC Champion. They are both religious Muslims. I was just listening to a recent podcast...

Fight Back Podcast
Premiered 4 hours ago

Belal Muhammad stopped by the Fight Back podcast studio in Vegas to talk about his recent fights, his heritage, what's happening in Palestine, pressures of being a fighter, his faith, mental prep, and much more.

00:00 Intro
01:52 The Importance of Wrestling in MMA
02:46 Dealing with Injuries and Setbacks
04:55 Analyzing Recent Fights
07:24 Palestinian Heritage and UFC Bias
08:52 Humanitarian Crisis in Palestine
24:15 The Role of Religion and Faith
32:56 Training and Brotherhood in MMA
36:31 Reflecting on a Superstar's Legacy
36:51 Jon Jones and the Fear of Aspinall
38:16 The Importance of Wrestling in MMA
40:48 Mental Challenges and Fight Week
41:45 The Pressure of Being a Fighter
53:32 Training and Discipline During Ramadan
55:07 The Role of Faith and Prayer in Fighting
59:01 The Importance of Continuous Improvement
01:06:43 The Value of Diverse Training Partners
01:08:35 Defensive Strategies in MMA
01:09:23 Training and Game Planning
01:10:46 The Importance of Sparring
01:12:09 Mental Preparation and Fight Week
01:19:40 Conor McGregor's Downfall
01:24:29 Social Media and Promotion in MMA
01:26:53 Controversial Opinions and Feuds
01:36:45 Final Thoughts, Social Media, Wrap Up

 

[Appledog]

This isn't what Kung Fu Wang is talking about.

You also said 'this isn't the kind of spirituality the OP was talking about'.

I know when someone has fighting experience because I start to hear things that are similar among those who have fighting experience.

I know when someone has spiritual experience because I start to hear things that are similar among those who have spiritual experience.

I do not hear or see any of these experiences except from the people who are responding.

You've said this a few times now so it seems you want to talk about it, but you didn't ask me anything about what I said to clarify so I was waiting to see if you would talk about the specifics.

Could you please specify what you meant by 'contradictions'? What do you mean by "trying too hard"? I am guessing you do Jow Ga, but do you have training in things like buddhism or dao? I ask to try and put into perspective what you say. I don't think what I said was contradictory, I know there was some issue over what I said about TTC36, but I also pointed out that I was heavily paraphrasing it.

Eager to learn,

 

[Same Trick]

I believe this is true, but one can have spirit in MA without being "spiritual." One must have a fighting spirit, a resolve (courage, confidence and perseverance) and a clear mind. IMO, that's about as far as it goes.

One may discover some spirituality from long, dedicated practice of MA, but this is a result of MA - it's not a prerequisite or part of MA itself.

There is some element of Tao in kung fu, but this is mostly a philosophy of yin/yang that, from what I know, was imposed on the execution of the art (balancing hard and soft, though mostly emphasizing the soft) around the 1600's. Nagamine's Matsubayashi karate has a definite slant towards Zen, but this too is an addition, a fairly recent one, after the fact. To my knowledge, it does not influence the actual execution of the art but treated as a parallel curriculum.

Almost by definition, spirituality is a personal thing and so may take many forms and applications, to be inserted into anything the individual wishes. So, if one wants spirituality in their MA, they are free to do so. But it's not an inherent part of it.

I was in Okinawa In the late 80’s and spent some moments in the Nagamine Dojo, after karate practice some of the younger karatekas use to gather at the parking lot just behind the dojo sharing snacks and beer, it was a relaxed, joyful in good spirit after “work” session.

 

[Same Trick]

The poster of the OP mention elsewhere in the thread wondering if movements are spiritual, to my comment on that another member answered -“Woo Woo”

Well here’s little more of that

For movements to be inherently spiritual it would require a body of “divine” proportions for de movements to be so.
And that’s the human body, as the great Leonardo da Vinci shows us with his Vitruvian Man, the human body and how it relates to both the square and circle.
Square and circle of course represent earth and heaven, and as we’re into universally divine stuff here it’s no coincidence that Da Vinci’s vitruvian man correspond with the Chinese SanCai concept- Heaven, Man, Earth. By this we can dwell into CMA, for example Xingyiquan in where SanCai is refined through the three body posture - santishi.

Let’s go back to Leonardo, not only did he show with the square and circle the divine proportions of man but also did he use the “Fibonacci sequence”/ golden-ratio spiral, a so called logarithmic spiral to make up for the human body proportions. This spiral is seemingly of divine design since its present in possibly everything from seashells to galaxies .

So let’s tie that back to Xingyiquan and its fundamental santishi posture in where the curving of the limbs tie into the arc of the golden ratio spiral, the very fundament of everything in the universe. If we then add movement to the santishi posture in the form of Pi-Quan(the golden ratio is related to Phi) usually the first technique to be practiced in XYQ , and there it is again, when doing full step pi-quan the hands can’t help to draw parts of golden-ratio spirals in the air.
And come to think of it, more related to martial art, the basic vertical Japanese katana cut also cuts in an arch, done while stepping it too should tie to the spiritually divine proportional spiral.

Of course the moves we do can’t help to be divine/spiritual case the body in itself is of divine proportions .


As you figured out, I’m not a philosophical wizard, I just had some dead time to kill having caught a little nasty cold and on doctors recommendation now sitting in the hospital getting some Chinese medicine by drip, it’s an interesting thing here in China, people favor taking medicine by drip hospitals have big rooms crammed with seats for this purpose.
Divine bodies or not them little viruses and germs still find a way .

 

[Sammy Naur]

Full disclosure I don't really follow Zen or Taoism in any sort of practical sense, but I do study things like religious warfare. I don't know thinks it's really possible to separate religion and warfare. There are really no "peaceful" religions,.and spiritually is often used as an excuse for murder. Even this week, Islamic rebels overthrew a 50 year old dictatorship and are planning to set up a theocracy with guns.

In World War 2, Japan's Imperial regime has basically bastardized both Buddhism and Taoism and combined it with military jingoism, leading to a massive army, navy, and air force filled with suicidal soldiers. As did the Nazis under the Third Reich, with their own SS death cult. They even stole a primary Buddhist symbol and literally flipped it.

I watched the Spielberg film Saving Private Ryan again earlier today wondering what was different about the Allied forces vs the Axis. On one hand, just considering D Day at Omaha, you had 10,000 men who died just trying to obtain a beachhead, there is no emperor or fuhrer motivating them, but there were definitely religious aspects. Spielberg makes sure to show that. A sniper praying to Jesus for a clean shot, a Jewish soldier mocking captured Germans with his Hand of God medallion.

In Japan, men would drink wine and dive their planes into ships. And centuries earlier, would also commit ritual suicide for minor things like speaking out of turn.

So, I think ultimately that whole "soldiers becoming monks" thing is yet another fantasy. Look at the legends of the Knights Templar and how they are glorified in pop culture. The whole idea of the "warrior priest", a cleric Knight, is a Romantic illusion. These guys were killers either dealing with guilt or trying to evade it.

Self defense is natural. We see it in nature everywhere. The spiritual stuff is, I think, a human fantasy, which is why humans are the only creature that are known to end their own lives by choice.

And legally, I think this is why self defense is applicable in life and death situations, and only those.

Someone once tried to argue with me about spiders, how the Black Widow got its name, claiming the males chose their fate. But we know it's just a matter of predator and prey, and escape options. Fight or flight.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Which is why I say they are not the same things. Spiritualism and Martial arts are 2 different things. There is no Spiritualism that is recognized as a Martial Art. There is no Martial art that is recognized as Spiritualism.

But I think these are contradictory statements.

Martial arts are steeped in spiritualism, throughout history. It's actually hard to find a martial art that doesn't have some sort of spiritual history...even wrestling can be found in the Old Testament, that's how Israel was named.

Gyokuto posted about the Fudo Myo statue. That's a god of war.

Heck, that's what Martial means. Maybe what we are calling spiritual is just nature, with a lot of human invention on top? We are very creative beings, it's not a stretch to think we could come up with a thousand ways to justify death.