Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in

[drop bear]

Speaking of opinions, I’ll go ahead and share mine.

Of course boxing can be an effective method of self defense. Anyone saying otherwise doesn’t know much.

I’m no boxer, but I have an observation to make and it seems that in six pages of discussion, the real issue hasn’t been addressed. Boxers use wraps and gloves to protect their hands. This makes sense because they pound on a heavy bag and on pads a lot, and they need to keep their hands safe so they don’t disrupt their career with an injury. This holds true for training and for competition. The hands and wrists are wrapped for support, and they wear gloves for further protection of the hand.

The problem is, the wraps and gloves change the structure of the fist and can hide minor flaws in technique and protect the hand from injury during a punch that, had the fist not been wrapped and gloved, would have caused an injury. So if a boxer ALWAYS uses wraps and gloves, they may never realize there are flaws in their technique, and furthermore they may never develop the conditioning to withstand the impact without that protection. So if they ever need to punch someone in self defense, without that protection, without wraps and gloves, it is possible they may land the punch with poor alignment and poor fist structure, and they end up with a broken hand.

The obvious solution is to spend time hitting heavy bags and pads without wraps and gloves. Do it bare-handed, learn what it feels like to punch without protection, understand the alignment and how little errors can lead to injury on impact. Understand that you likely cannot punch as hard without that protection, without risking injury. Develop the conditioning to handle a bare-knuckle punch.

So this isn’t a problem with boxing, but rather a problem with the likely training habits of competitive boxers. Those training for competition will follow the best practices to that end, and of course that makes sense. But that may not be the best training approach for self defense on the street. Of course this isn’t difficult to overcome with the addition of even occasional practices to deal with those issues.

Three issues.

Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.

The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.

You can break your hands wearing gloves. So poor technique isn't really disguised.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.

I heard some boxing coaches who have their guys train without wraps for conditioning purposes who would disagree. These coaches made the statement that it conditions the hand and wrist and teaches more effective punching from a structure approach.

My understanding of wraps is that it supports structure when using a glove that distorts structure. The size of the glove increases the risk that the outside of the glove may cause greater movement of the structure of the fist. This only applies to wraps for boxing gloves

 

[JowGaWolf]

Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.

Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Three issues.

Bare knuckle boxers train with gloves and wraps.

The issue is volume of training that damages hands therefore the wraps.

You can break your hands wearing gloves. So poor technique isn't really disguised.

I think the point was meant to be not that training with gloves/wrap is bad, but that not training without them is. I certainly get more feedback without them, though there's some technique to using puffy gloves properly, too - the rounded shape makes some strikes put more off-axis pressure on the wrist. So, yeah, injury can still occur - a part of that risk is specifically due to some of the characteristics of the gloves.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I don't know man, I think the 100 meter dash might be the most realistic and visceral response to aggression for many

I think the point was meant to be not that training with gloves/wrap is bad, but that not training without them is. I certainly get more feedback without them, though there's some technique to using puffy gloves properly, too - the rounded shape makes some strikes put more off-axis pressure on the wrist. So, yeah, injury can still occur - a part of that risk is specifically due to some of the characteristics of the gloves.

I trained in boxing as a kid, many times i hurt my wrists for various reasons Including that off axis pressure that you speak of. A long time ago, afierce a couple of years of training in cma with correct structure I found that I prefer no glove, no wrap because of better feedback and because I don’t have to fight the tape and wrap to get proper structure in the fist. That said, I DO still use bag gloves with the heavy bag to protect my skin. I guess my point is that ( for me personally) I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I trained in boxing as a kid, many times i hurt my wrists for various reasons Including that off axis pressure that you speak of. A long time ago, afierce a couple of years of training in cma with correct structure I found that I prefer no glove, no wrap because of better feedback and because I don’t have to fight the tape and wrap to get proper structure in the fist. That said, I DO still use bag gloves with the heavy bag to protect my skin. I guess my point is that ( for me personally) I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).

I like the heavy gloves mostly because they are heavy, and because newer students feel more confident when heavy gloves are involved.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.

I'm not an MMA guy and I don't train in an MMA school, but all of this sounds familiar to what I've seen training in my kung fu schools as a student and in the school where I was an Instructor. At 7:45 he talks about the same things I've claimed about me punching at 40% - 50% power. "Do it right. Start Light" is TMA in general. A lot of what is here has been stated by others numerous times. The only thing I don't agree with completely is the bloody knuckles comment. You can condition the hand and knuckles to an acceptable level to where the knuckles no longer bleed. Bleeding is just a sign that you punches are going directly into the bag. Once you get the punching technique correct and a little tough skin on your knuckles then the bleeding doesn't happen and you can train as much as you can. So long as you aren't sliding the knuckles across the bag like you are trying to light a match.

I really like this one so far (I always like a good story)

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm not an MMA guy and I don't train in an MMA school, but all of this sounds familiar to what I've seen training in my kung fu schools as a student and in the school where I was an Instructor. At 7:45 he talks about the same things I've claimed about me punching at 40% - 50% power. "Do it right. Start Light" is TMA in general. A lot of what is here has been stated by others numerous times. The only thing I don't agree with completely is the bloody knuckles comment. You can condition the hand and knuckles to an acceptable level to where the knuckles no longer bleed. Bleeding is just a sign that you punches are going directly into the bag. Once you get the punching technique correct and a little tough skin on your knuckles then the bleeding doesn't happen and you can train as much as you can. So long as you aren't sliding the knuckles across the bag like you are trying to light a match.

I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I think I may have been better off to learn to structure my fist first and THEN use tape and wraps. I find gloves have an almost crippling effect on certain types of strikes, and obviously make some types of fists unusable (ginger fist, mantis beak, single knuckle, leopard fist etc.).

I used a pair of boxing gloves without wrap and I've never had to mentally focus so much on my fist structure and wrist structure as much as I did that day. That glove moved around so much that I thought I would miss or glance a punch that would tilt the glove and as a result tilt my wrist. I didn't have trouble keeping the fist structure because I naturally lock my thumb on the side of my fist. I don't think I could say the same if I wrapped my thumb around my fist. With all of that said, I could see how I could easy injury myself if I got lazy with my fist structure. It made me really thankful for all of the time my teacher hounded me about bad fist structure and the importance of fist structure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.

That's doable. It gets you to the same place so long as it transitions to the bare hands. Your way is definitely a much faster way to get to the fun stuff which is to nail that bag once that's out of your system you can focus on the smaller critical points. In TMA schools that go in the other direction. It seems like it takes forever to get to the fun and exciting stuff. No one wants to join a school only to have to hit a heavy bag softly. Students that trust the teacher will suffer through that boring and slow period and become happy at the end. Your way starts with the happiness first.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've long believed that, in general, the best approach is to start with wraps and bag gloves. As technique and conditioning improve, transition to wraps alone. Eventually you move to bare hands.

I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This one is for @Alan0354

Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I like the heavy gloves mostly because they are heavy, and because newer students feel more confident when heavy gloves are involved.

Have you had this experience where the first time you put gloves and a mouth piece on new students and they start mouth breathing and standing up straight rigid? It seems like it takes people a few times before they can relax, and a lot more before they remember their training. The ones who have done some boxing don’t freak out as much. What is it about the gloves that does that? These are folks that usually have a year or so of consistent training under their belt. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on this?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This one is for @Alan0354

Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.

Yep we do it that way.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I used a pair of boxing gloves without wrap and I've never had to mentally focus so much on my fist structure and wrist structure as much as I did that day. That glove moved around so much that I thought I would miss or glance a punch that would tilt the glove and as a result tilt my wrist. I didn't have trouble keeping the fist structure because I naturally lock my thumb on the side of my fist. I don't think I could say the same if I wrapped my thumb around my fist. With all of that said, I could see how I could easy injury myself if I got lazy with my fist structure. It made me really thankful for all of the time my teacher hounded me about bad fist structure and the importance of fist structure.

Exactly! I tried that myself and the same experience.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.

My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’ve always gone in the other direction (partly due to lack of proper communal equipment) and have wondered if it wouldn’t be better reversed.

I wouldn't say it's better or worse. It's definitely more Entertaining for beginners and more tempting to avoid the last part of that which is bare knuckles. Beginners want to get in the gym and hit hard. Dirty Dog's way would get that out of their system a lot quicker. Once the student gets over the excitement of hitting hard, they can not focus on that boring, but important stuff.

When I first got into Jow Ga, my co-worker was doing boxing. We kind of went "tough man" on the bag to show off our power. He used gloves I used my fist, he eventually Went from gloves to a pair of bag gloves that I still have today (those things are nasty now. lol). I tried to get him to go the other direction and it killed him. He didn't want to hit soft because it doesn't look or feel as tough. It's really difficult to start small and focus on the small stuff at first. I prefer that way, but it's still not easy for me.

I think it's a longer way because it's so easy to neglect that small stuff. It would be like if you were train to get stronger with me. We would start with 2lbs or 4lbs, and you wouldn't feel stronger for the first 5 months, but you would get stronger. It's just that you wouldn't notice it until you apply it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yep we do it that way.

I wouldn’t say that is the best example in that video but the concept is there. I teach them to isolate the waist turn and learn to hold the hip still until they get control of each independently. It’s more useful in my experience to be able to add or remove on the split second. Similarly, I teach both sides for every motion and stance. I want equal utility in each side of every stance or technique.

 

[Flying Crane]

This one is for @Alan0354

Turning the torso (waist not hips) is another concept found in Chinese TMA you see it mostly in the long fist styles.

Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.

The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.