Is it not a good idea to use boxing in a street fight situation do to the risk of breaking bones in

[Wing Woo Gar]

Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.

Same here.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.

When I started, everything was bare knuckle. And foot. Technology advances, and I think it's good to take advantage of that.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

When I started, everything was bare knuckle. And foot. Technology advances, and I think it's good to take advantage of that.

Absolutely. I’m getting old, but there is still a lot for me to learn.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Conceptually there are similarities but the mechanics of how he goes about it is very different from what I am experienced with.

It's going to very mechanically depending on the technique that is being used. A person will be able to shape the concept to fit the technique so long as they understand how to generate that power a specific way. There's a limited number of ways to twist the torso (waist) for punching.

This is him using the torso to generate power. Keep in mind this isn't a punching technique. It's just a exercise he uses to training how to generate power with the torso (waist).

Same as this. I like this video good information here and visual example between twisting the waist vs just using the arms.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Have you had this experience where the first time you put gloves and a mouth piece on new students and they start mouth breathing and standing up straight rigid? It seems like it takes people a few times before they can relax, and a lot more before they remember their training. The ones who have done some boxing don’t freak out as much. What is it about the gloves that does that? These are folks that usually have a year or so of consistent training under their belt. Just curious if anyone has thoughts on this?

Not too much, but that may be because of how they get started. My students start with "defensive sparring": a more senior person (usually me) stays on the offensive with very light-touch attacks, while the student has to defend without any offense. They are working on three things: learning to function "inside the storm", footwork to control angle and distance, and a small amount of body/arm usage to block/jam. For most students, the next level is simply the reverse - again, working with someone more senior (usually me).

During this whole time, they're also learning to punch and some basic footwork, mostly on the bag (with some traditional drills, especially for those who struggle). They start there without gloves, and we work with whatever gloves are available and suitable, when that makes sense (hands get sore, or I decide they are ready to work with gloves).

By the time they are putting in mouth guards and donning gloves for sparring, they've usually been working on relaxing and being comfortable with very light-touch exercises a few weeks and have gotten used to the gloves at the bag. Anyone who comes in already having sparring experience still goes through these stages, but mostly for evaluation. If they do okay at them the first time, we move straight to more significant sparring.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My thought is to prevent injury early. Most people will start with less than full power punches. If they hurt themselves, they're going to hold back. If not, they will ramp up to full power. One thing... I don't ever use boxing gloves. I recommend bag gloves. Essentially MMA-style gloves with wrist wraps and a bar across palm. Boxing gloves seem too big and pillow-like and will not foster good technique to the same degree.

I had bag gloves and MMA gloves available at the last place I taught. I liked those much better than boxing gloves for students practicing punches. At previous locations, we only had whatever I was able to haul in in a bag, so gloves were a sometime thing, except one location had boxing gloves there, so we ended up using those more often.

I haven't had a student do anything yet to injure themselves, but I've mostly had middle-aged folks (nearly all over 35), and they tend to take a more reasoned start than the young bucks I used to train with.

I mostly like boxing gloves for the weight they add to the arm during sparring. It highlights the usual issue of folks dropping their hands as they get tired. And if they break that habit with 10-16 oz on their hands, they're unlikely to drop their bare hands.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wouldn't say it's better or worse. It's definitely more Entertaining for beginners and more tempting to avoid the last part of that which is bare knuckles. Beginners want to get in the gym and hit hard. Dirty Dog's way would get that out of their system a lot quicker. Once the student gets over the excitement of hitting hard, they can not focus on that boring, but important stuff.

When I first got into Jow Ga, my co-worker was doing boxing. We kind of went "tough man" on the bag to show off our power. He used gloves I used my fist, he eventually Went from gloves to a pair of bag gloves that I still have today (those things are nasty now. lol). I tried to get him to go the other direction and it killed him. He didn't want to hit soft because it doesn't look or feel as tough. It's really difficult to start small and focus on the small stuff at first. I prefer that way, but it's still not easy for me.

I think it's a longer way because it's so easy to neglect that small stuff. It would be like if you were train to get stronger with me. We would start with 2lbs or 4lbs, and you wouldn't feel stronger for the first 5 months, but you would get stronger. It's just that you wouldn't notice it until you apply it.

I never seem to get the beginners who want to hit hard. I remember them back in the day, but I mostly get adults (over 35) since I moved up here, so that might be the difference. I've spent a lot of time getting students to hit a bit harder each time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not too much, but that may be because of how they get started. My students start with "defensive sparring": a more senior person (usually me) stays on the offensive with very light-touch attacks, while the student has to defend without any offense. They are working on three things: learning to function "inside the storm", footwork to control angle and distance, and a small amount of body/arm usage to block/jam. For most students, the next level is simply the reverse - again, working with someone more senior (usually me).

During this whole time, they're also learning to punch and some basic footwork, mostly on the bag (with some traditional drills, especially for those who struggle). They start there without gloves, and we work with whatever gloves are available and suitable, when that makes sense (hands get sore, or I decide they are ready to work with gloves).

By the time they are putting in mouth guards and donning gloves for sparring, they've usually been working on relaxing and being comfortable with very light-touch exercises a few weeks and have gotten used to the gloves at the bag. Anyone who comes in already having sparring experience still goes through these stages, but mostly for evaluation. If they do okay at them the first time, we move straight to more significant sparring.

Ok all that makes sense. I should say that without ”sparring” per se, they have, at this point engaged in contact two man drills, six star, etc. They know what hard contact feels like, but i find that when gloves go on the first time they just fall apart. Everyone tends to calm down after the second or third time so I don’t worry about it, but I am curious about why it happens so consistently.

 

[drop bear]

Wraps can be used for different reasons. Just because one group wears wraps doesn't mean that's the same reason why another group uses it.

So what would be the other reason for wearing wraps?

 

[Flying Crane]

It's going to very mechanically depending on the technique that is being used. A person will be able to shape the concept to fit the technique so long as they understand how to generate that power a specific way. There's a limited number of ways to twist the torso (waist) for punching.

This is him using the torso to generate power. Keep in mind this isn't a punching technique. It's just a exercise he uses to training how to generate power with the torso (waist).

Same as this. I like this video good information here and visual example between twisting the waist vs just using the arms.

The torso should not be twisting. It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique. At least that is how my system is structured.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The torso should not be twisting. It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique. At least that is how my system is structured.

Yep same same.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The torso should not be twisting. It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique. At least that is how my system is structured.

Semantics? Rotating versus twisting? Sounds like different ways of describing the same concept. All of what you both say is relatable to how I understand it. Pulling with the bottom of the foot, squeezing the legs, rotating/turning/twisting the waist…

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The torso should not be twisting. It should be rotating, driven by the feet, and there ought to be consistency in the methodology regardless of the specific technique. At least that is how my system is structured.

Do you hold the hip still in your system? We do it that way but add the hip in hooks and a few others.

 

[caped crusader]

The mma gloves didn’t exist when I was a kid, I totally agree with what you are saying here though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok all that makes sense. I should say that without ”sparring” per se, they have, at this point engaged in contact two man drills, six star, etc. They know what hard contact feels like, but i find that when gloves go on the first time they just fall apart. Everyone tends to calm down after the second or third time so I don’t worry about it, but I am curious about why it happens so consistently.

I'd guess (with too little information for this to be an educated guess) that something about the situation feels dramatically different to them. Enough is changing (at least, to them) at the same time that they have anxiety about it. Perhaps they've seen senior students going at it hard, and that's their expectation of what goes on once the gloves are on, or something like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

View attachment 27645

I have a pair of those. They were labeled "kempo gloves" where I got them. They are considerably puffier than MMA gloves.

 

[caped crusader]

I have a pair of those. They were labeled "kempo gloves" where I got them. They are considerably puffier than MMA gloves.

yeah but i think it paved the way for what we now have. Bruce Lee was a real pioneer !

 

[Flying Crane]

Semantics? Rotating versus twisting? Sounds like different ways of describing the same concept. All of what you both say is relatable to how I understand it. Pulling with the bottom of the foot, squeezing the legs, rotating/turning/twisting the waist…

Could be, but to me they are different. Twisting implies that the hips stay where they are and the shoulders rotate, causing the spine to twist. Rotate means the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, turn as a single unit without (or minimized) twisting the spine. Twisting can be done with little or no engagement of the legs, while rotation is pushed from the feet and legs. From what I’ve seen, it seems like a lot of people twist from the shoulders and don’t engage the legs as much as they could. That is one of the things I didn’t like about the video, it all seemed to come from the shoulders and not from the legs and feet. The feet were turning over as a result of the shoulders turning, rather than as the root pushing that turn.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you hold the hip still in your system? We do it that way but add the hip in hooks and a few others.

We rotate the entire torso, from hips to shoulders, by pushing on the ground with the feet. The energy from the push is directed into the hips to turn from one side to the other. This causes the hip joints to open and close as you turn from one side to the other, and back again, as you throw one punch after another.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

View attachment 27645

I stand corrected. What I should have said was that I couldn’t afford them even if I had known they existed.