Is Cross training detremental to your Life?

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh I reject Western thought. I more of Eastern thought kinda of guy. I knew when I started learning about the greek philophers and hearing about the crap of the realm of forms and ideas...Western thought aint for me. I sticl to Eastern thought it is more logical. But as for studying well I did my part to get an High B in the class. Due to registrations problems I missed the beginning date of the class an it was an accelerated course so I was unable to move up to an "A" But I did maintain a "B" In that forsaken class. I also studied Art of old world. We have extensive studies in greek and roman culture. We learn all about Doric and Ionic and Corithian pillars. But either way I count it all as dung to teachings of East!

But thats not to insult your beliefs,religion or values. I am sorry I don't mean to offend?

As for plainly stating my thoughts. I am simply saying Stevebjj I wish you would be honest and share a possible disadvantage no matter how insignificant it is to you. There has to be one disadvantage to cross training in your brillant mind.

Yoshi, it is clear that, while you may have read some philosophy, you haven't studied it. I mean studied like we study martial arts, with a competent teacher. The stuff I'm talking about is white belt level philosophy. Fundamental. Just dismissing it doesn't work. We are talking about schools of thought that are older than wing chun. Battle tested, so to speak.

Take hand swords advice and speak plainly. This double talk just drags things out.

 

[Hand Sword]

What are the disadvantages that are bugging you? Why keep this going back and fourth? What are they?

 

[dungeonworks]

It's also a logical fallacy completely ignoring the possibility that there are alternatives other than the two he suggests. I used this tactic on my kids when they were toddlers. It's also used often by politicians and used car salesmen.

...and New Talk Radio as well.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

What is the advantage to not cross training? What would be the advantage to studing lets say Baguazhang exclusively with out adding Muay Thai or Karate?

Hai-chuan Tung the founder of Bagua picked students who already trained in other martial arts. Also alot of the Bagua people CROSSTRAINED in other styles like Hsing yi or Tai chi. Sun Lutang studied Bagua,Hsing yi and Taichi chuan and because of his CROSSTRAINING creatived Sun style Tai chi. Sun style you can see the Bagua movements in the form.

 

[Steve]

Oh I reject Western thought.

Ok. I guess that's it then. It's the fingers in the ears saying "nanana, I can't hear you" approach to a discussion.

As for plainly stating my thoughts. I am simply saying Stevebjj I wish you would be honest and share a possible disadvantage no matter how insignificant it is to you. There has to be one disadvantage to cross training in your brillant mind.

Yoshi, whether in the East or the West, this is not plain speaking. You say you're plainly stating your thoughts, but then share no thoughts. Instead, you rehash your leading question, this time disguised as statement. This time getting a little snarky and instead of insulting my education, you decide to go after my integrity. Nice.

Why don't you just say what you're going to say? Get it off your chest. You have taken ahold of this flawed question of yours and are holding onto it for dear life. Answer it yourself. You obviously have something in mind. State your own opinions, stop trying to lead the discussion and try participating in it, instead.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hai-chuan Tung the founder of Bagua picked students who already trained in other martial arts. Also alot of the Bagua people CROSSTRAINED in other styles like Hsing yi or Tai chi. Sun Lutang studied Bagua,Hsing yi and Taichi chuan and because of his CROSSTRAINING creatived Sun style Tai chi. Sun style you can see the Bagua movements in the form.

Exactly

In the 21st century in MA we tend to think that Bruce Lee was the only one that cross trained and came up with a new style and we tend to forget people like Sun Lutang and Wang Xiangzhai. I am not trying to take anything from Bruce Lee, he was very talented and very skilled, but he was by far not the first to cross train a CMA and certainly not the first to cross train and come up with another style. Hell Sanda is a product of cross training. It is also been speculated that Yang Luchan trained Changquan before Chen and he founded Yang Style.

Throughout Chinese martial arts history you will find multiple martial artists that trained multiple styles. Wang Xiangzhai's main style was Xingyiquan but he traveled around and learned a lot from other styles and eventually that gave us Yiquan. A multitude of Xingyiquan people have also trained Baguazhang as well as Baguazhang people training Xingyiquan. Ji Jike trained Xinyi but prior to that trained another style and from that we get Xingyiquan. The founder of Hao style trained more than one style. And for that matter since the founder of Wu style was a palace guard before learning Yang he too learned more than one style. My sifu’s sifu trained Hao style and Yang Style.

There are a lot of ICMA people that came from styles like Changquan but there are a lot of CMA people that trained more than one style. And there are MAist in China today that look at training like we do college. You start with a teacher that teaches you what he knows and you graduate to a teacher that can teach you more and that is not necessarily the same style.

So to be 100% honest here cross training in MA has been around for centuries and it has worked just fine so I just don't understand how now in the 21st century it has gotten detrimental to Life when in the past in many cases that is what saved a few lives.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh I reject Western thought. I more of Eastern thought kinda of guy.

Sorry I missed this in my last post.

If you are in fact an Eastern thought kind of guy I suggest you read my above post about Eastern History, specifically Chinese history as it applies to MA.

And in fact Eastern thought does not compartmentalize and cross training different styles is still training... not good not bad just training. It is Eastern thought that devised a multitude of Martial arts styles for various reasons, from the founder of a style felt he had a better idea all the way to those that had to change the style a bit so they could change the name to make money. And as previously stated many style founders cross trained and at times looked at with great respect as previously mentioned Sun Lutang was thought of as a rather formidable fighter and he trained 3 styles and then designed a 4th. But then it was not all that uncommon in old China to find a guy that trained Xingyiquan and Baguazhang and possibly Taiji as well or any other combination of styles

Shaolin is considered Buddhist which is a rather eastern way of thinking and if you are looking at Shaolin and all the various styles and forms that were taught there that would, IMO, be a good example of cross training. Taoists, also rather eastern thinking (Specifically Chinese) Train multiple styles of Wudangquan: Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua and a few others plus various forms of Qigong and they have been training this way for centuries.

So where is cross training not eastern thought?

 

[dungeonworks]

Sorry I missed this in my last post.

If you are in fact an Eastern thought kind of guy I suggest you read my above post about Eastern History, specifically Chinese history as it applies to MA.

And in fact Eastern thought does not compartmentalize and cross training different styles is still training... not good not bad just training. It is Eastern thought that devised a multitude of Martial arts styles for various reasons, from the founder of a style felt he had a better idea all the way to those that had to change the style a bit so they could change the name to make money. And as previously stated many style founders cross trained and at times looked at with great respect as previously mentioned Sun Lutang was thought of as a rather formidable fighter and he trained 3 styles and then designed a 4th. But then it was not all that uncommon in old China to find a guy that trained Xingyiquan and Baguazhang and possibly Taiji as well or any other combination of styles

Shaolin is considered Buddhist which is a rather eastern way of thinking and if you are looking at Shaolin and all the various styles and forms that were taught there that would, IMO, be a good example of cross training. Taoists, also rather eastern thinking (Specifically Chinese) Train multiple styles of Wudangquan: Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua and a few others plus various forms of Qigong and they have been training this way for centuries.

So where is cross training not eastern thought?

Great post!

I wonder how many styles have been changed by founders, not because the original way was flawed so much as a better way for techniques fitting differing sets of attributes. For example, a karate teacher shortening stances or making movements shorter and more efficient?

I see martial arts as very individualized, no matter the style. One must tune things a bit to make them work no matter the style. I think now, and always have thought that staying in one proverbial box limits you potential, be it sticking with parts of one style that you are good at or taking from various martial arts. There is no downside or negative impact to cross training.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I find Eastern thought and Eastern religion to be more mixture and influenced by each other than anything.

To Quote Dr.Irit Averbuch "It is not uncommon to encounter on stage a Shinto deity wearing the Taoist charm of Kuji while performing Buddhist mudras". This from her works concerning Shugendo.

Taoism as a religion was greatly influenced by Buddhist religion and even absorbed some of its practices such as Karma into its belief system.

So now we have Eastern thought as I already mentioned Sun Lutang approach Xue offered Wang Xiangzhai who interesting enough taught Wang shu jin. In the Japanese side Yoseikan Aikido has cross training or mixing of Judo and Karate. Nakakura Kiyoshi trained in Aikido and Kendo.

Kano Jigoro met with many Budo masters and according to Neil Ohlenkamp
Kata Guruma was taken from wrestling to defeat Fukushima. The list goes on and on.

 

[bs10927]

some people really over-analyze this issue. i like to make candles. i don't make candles to fill the gaps in my hobby of playing guitar. i just like to play guitar & make candles.

jf

i know i'm late but.....I play guitar too!

 

[Hand Sword]

I would still like yoshiyahu to give an answer to my question. What is/are the con(s) that he is thinking about which is what he wants the "pro-people" to admit to. If a reason is given, maybe a real discussion can come about.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I don't mean Chinese Eastern thought...He stated something pertaining the Greek and Roman Thought...I am more of Hebrew mind set...Not Greek or hellenized mind set...Let me clarify what I mean by Eastern thought...

Also to qualify the statement...Westen thought was not pretaining to Crosstraining or Martial Arts...I was speaking of Fallacy. Be it Westernize thinking. The word Fallacy, Premise and other Philopiscal terms I suggested were Western ideology that I do not engage in. That why I didn't respond to it. But when on to question I was asking.

But as for cross training....Eastern and Western thought don't really say its bad...In fact I think Cross training is beneficial...I cross train now.

But I also think there is also a con to cross training. An I wanted those who think Cross training is better than training one style to admit that there are also pro's and con's to cross training.

Sorry I missed this in my last post.

If you are in fact an Eastern thought kind of guy I suggest you read my above post about Eastern History, specifically Chinese history as it applies to MA.

And in fact Eastern thought does not compartmentalize and cross training different styles is still training... not good not bad just training. It is Eastern thought that devised a multitude of Martial arts styles for various reasons, from the founder of a style felt he had a better idea all the way to those that had to change the style a bit so they could change the name to make money. And as previously stated many style founders cross trained and at times looked at with great respect as previously mentioned Sun Lutang was thought of as a rather formidable fighter and he trained 3 styles and then designed a 4th. But then it was not all that uncommon in old China to find a guy that trained Xingyiquan and Baguazhang and possibly Taiji as well or any other combination of styles

Shaolin is considered Buddhist which is a rather eastern way of thinking and if you are looking at Shaolin and all the various styles and forms that were taught there that would, IMO, be a good example of cross training. Taoists, also rather eastern thinking (Specifically Chinese) Train multiple styles of Wudangquan: Taiji, Xingyi, Bagua and a few others plus various forms of Qigong and they have been training this way for centuries.

So where is cross training not eastern thought?

 

[Hand Sword]

This is now a fourth attempt for an answer. yoshiyahu, are you going to answer the question that I've posed 3 past times or just keep the arguing going? I think, that your just arguing to argue and don't really have any "cons" to put up for a discussion. I hope that you are more than a troll, you seem sensible, so please show it. :idunno:

 

[Steve]

If it helps move things along, I'd like to go on record as reminding yoshi that I haven't ever said crosstraining is better than training one style. I don't think anyone else did, either.

But I'd still like to hear these cons.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Simple Answer

Pros to cross Training
1.Multiple styles to draw from
2.Additional drills
3.Additional Strength Drills
4.Additional Offense tactics
5.Additional Defense tactics



Cons to Cross Training
1.Time Lost that could spent on one art
2.Won't Specialize in one art
3.Will not Be Master in one Art
4.May Cause confusion
5.Longer Time to learn

Well I have posted both con's and pro's before. An others have too but I was waiting for Steve to also share his opinions?


My Opinions:

Okay. So in other words you want me to share my personal experiences on why I feel Cross training is determental? Is that what your saying? My opinion is different. But I am more bias to reason for cross training. But let me say this. I don't think cross training will make you a better fighter. It may give you an edge over some people but not all. To become a better fighter you have to fight alot. You need to fight people of all skill levels and you need fight people of other styles An learn from your experiences not other people words or martial arts systems or principals. You learn ten different styles with 10 different principals each. That won't make you a better figther than Mr. Chung Wong the Tiger Claw Fighter who has been fighting and sparring people of different styles for twenty years. Chong Wong is a totally ficticous charater so no need to google him...lol...My point is this if your cross training to fill the gaps of your style....you may be doing it for the wrong reasons.

I did agree with one point...let me share.....
Someone said something about taking the stretches from like TKD and using them to become more flexible. This is probably what my Sifu did. Because he taught me strecthes from my head to my toes. But these same streches I also see in Phyiscal education and even in many Shaolin and Gung fu books. Also many of streches bruce lee did are also from Shaolin and Gung Fu books. I see track runners and other atheletes using the same streches as Tae Kwon Do. But I think the best Stecthing formula would come from Ballet in my humble opion. Because they are most limber I have ever seen. Of course the streching regiment of Karate would come next and then after that would be Tae Kwn Do. But either way. If you practice TKD Kicks, Some Judo throws,Some Aikido arm Locks. In my opinion your still doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun doesn't kick above the waist that often. But that doesn't mean Wing Chun can not kick High. It just usually tries to choose the most direct path. But their are always exceptions to rule in actual fight and in training. For one When you train Wing Chun you need to be able to throw High kicks in order to do partner drills where you can defend against high round house kicks to head. You need to work on joint locks and throws so you know how to apply them in Wing Chun. Wing Chun uses grappling and Chin Na. So you have Judo and Aikido also with in the WC system.

Wing Chun fights inside mostly. But Wing Chun can fight outside too. Wing Chun doesn't usually throw long punches but it does in demostration to show defenses.

So the principals of Wing Chun are designed to give you the best advantage in a fight.

But exceptions to every rule...

In Wing Chun you can throw long puncs
Throw High Kicks
Do Wrestling moves(Feel your opponent on the ground)
Inact Chin Na techniques


But there is nothing wrong with Cross training for fun. But its for combat purposes there may be a problem. You need contact sparring with people of other styles and those in your system more skilled than you. Now there is nothing wrong with drawing from other systems in a fight either.

How ever we agree to agree on these issues:

*A beginner in any art shouldn't cross train two arts until he has foundation in atleast one art first.

*A person who cross trains should have one style that is main style that he draws from.

But I do say study Throws and Joint Lock techniques Study High kicks. Study Wrestling. But study your WC more. Do not neglect your WC to go train in another style for two years and keep flip flopping...

I feel training two new styles at once is extremely hard. Like if your a golden glove boxer and start training Karate and Tae Kwon Do to increase your hard style combat with kicks and chops along with aerial Kicks and high stamina kicks. It will be harder to become one with the two new styles. It will take longer for your body to comform to both styles. It will take longer to remember the basics and forms too. These are some draw backs in my humble Opinion I am now facing. But any way You may feel differently thats cool.


Personally I think Wing Chun is a great style that doesn't need any cross training to become a better fighter. I also feel the same about Five Animals, Xing Yi Quan, Tai Chi Chaun, Eagle Claw, Pak Mei, Bagua Zhang etc. If you practice these styles and progress to a mastery level you won't need another style to supplement them.

But I do see a benefit to cross training. Its about being deceptive. Like for instance. When I spar or fight. I throw up a boxing guard. This way the average street fighter feels comfortable. An he expects to fight a boxers fight. Then When the clinch comes inside fighting springs up. Along with some wing chun kicks. When distance is regain then outside long fighting comes. Long Kicks and Long Punches. So inside they are terrorize and outside they are terrorize.

Excellent Post Jarrod and Hand Sword. I enjoy how you show to posistive aspects to crosstraining. But we must realize all things have pro's and con's. You did a great job of sharing the Pro's. Now let me ask you what would be draw backs, weaknesses and hindering effects of cross training?

Please share the down side to cross training. What do you think would be the down side of cross training in contrast to all the wounderful posistives you share. I am saying negate all the great pro's but please share some of the con's you see as well?

This is now a fourth attempt for an answer. yoshiyahu, are you going to answer the question that I've posed 3 past times or just keep the arguing going? I think, that your just arguing to argue and don't really have any "cons" to put up for a discussion. I hope that you are more than a troll, you seem sensible, so please show it. :idunno:

 

[seasoned]

Exactly

In the 21st century in MA we tend to think that Bruce Lee was the only one that cross trained and came up with a new style and we tend to forget people like Sun Lutang and Wang Xiangzhai. I am not trying to take anything from Bruce Lee, he was very talented and very skilled, but he was by far not the first to cross train a CMA and certainly not the first to cross train and come up with another style. Hell Sanda is a product of cross training. It is also been speculated that Yang Luchan trained Changquan before Chen and he founded Yang Style.

Throughout Chinese martial arts history you will find multiple martial artists that trained multiple styles. Wang Xiangzhai's main style was Xingyiquan but he traveled around and learned a lot from other styles and eventually that gave us Yiquan. A multitude of Xingyiquan people have also trained Baguazhang as well as Baguazhang people training Xingyiquan. Ji Jike trained Xinyi but prior to that trained another style and from that we get Xingyiquan. The founder of Hao style trained more than one style. And for that matter since the founder of Wu style was a palace guard before learning Yang he too learned more than one style. My sifu’s sifu trained Hao style and Yang Style.

There are a lot of ICMA people that came from styles like Changquan but there are a lot of CMA people that trained more than one style. And there are MAist in China today that look at training like we do college. You start with a teacher that teaches you what he knows and you graduate to a teacher that can teach you more and that is not necessarily the same style.

So to be 100% honest here cross training in MA has been around for centuries and it has worked just fine so I just don't understand how now in the 21st century it has gotten detrimental to Life when in the past in many cases that is what saved a few lives.

With all the cross training over so many years, hasn’t a total art emerge yet ?

 

[Steve]

From post #19 in the thread:
"I would say that it depends entirely upon four things: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome.

Once again, and I know I sound like a broken record, my belief is that it's not often the techniques involved, but how they're trained that makes the difference. If the techniques are poorly integrated, it would have more to do with how the person trains than what they're training. Poorly integrated technique occurs all the time even in one style as a result of poor training. Crosstraining has little to do with it.

The intent seems to be to conclude that it's either bad or good to crosstrain, or that one should only crosstrain if the moons are in alignment or the timing is otherwise right. I disagree with any hard and fast conclusion. It all depends on the person, the styles involved, the desired outcome and how the person trains."

From post #37
"I won't argue against having a primary style, but I would say that it really depends. For some, I'm sure you're right. But I can learn to play two things at once. Most people can. While it certainly does depend upon the person, I think you're selling most people short."

post 45
"I would say that aikido taught by a competent aikido instructor is aikido. Just as Judo taught by a competent Judo instructor is Judo.

As a blue belt in BJJ, I am learning BJJ from a competent BJJ instructor, and have been for a few years now. I am not, however, competent myself to TEACH BJJ. So, while what I'm learning is teh r34l BJJ, I wouldn't then go to a Karate school and presume to uke for them with the idea that if they can beat me, they can defeat "a grappler." Make sense?"

The rest of my posts were mostly elaborating or attempting to clarify these posts which, I believe, outline my opinion pretty well. I haven't been evasive. I've simply not played your childish game.

 

[Steve]

With all the cross training over so many years, hasn’t a total art emerge yet ?

I would personally attribute this to the four things I mentioned in my first post in this thread: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome.

 

[Hand Sword]

Simple Answer

Pros to cross Training
1.Multiple styles to draw from
2.Additional drills
3.Additional Strength Drills
4.Additional Offense tactics
5.Additional Defense tactics



Cons to Cross Training
1.Time Lost that could spent on one art
2.Won't Specialize in one art
3.Will not Be Master in one Art
4.May Cause confusion
5.Longer Time to learn

Well I have posted both con's and pro's before. An others have too but I was waiting for Steve to also share his opinions?


My Opinions:

Thank you. My response to the cons are: 1. No time is lost as you start to cross train once you've gained enough knowledge and comfort with your current system, say Black Belt level, where the basics are pretty well covered by you. Also, the cross training art is simply supplementive to your skills in your system. Just add ons.

So that applies to your fears in point #2 as well. Your still specializing, just adding a few things here and there. Plus, those things added are already apart of most styles,so all your doing is adding a twist or a better way for you to do it.

Point #3 is covered still too, your still training in the higher levels of your art, the cross training is with specific things usually, like a buffet.

Point #4- There's no confusion. For one, usually it's an opposite style like grappling to a stand up style that is addressed. Otherwise, it's just methods by those that specialize in a specific area that you are using to enhance an area you might have familiarity or weakness in.

As for point 5-- a longer time? You spoke of being a master in point #3. That is probably a lifetime committment already or at least a good amount of years. So, there is plenty of time at hand either way.

Overall, considering the pros and cons you are worried about, there is no danger of your life threatened. If your gaining more insight and sharpening and polishing your skills overall, how can that be detrimental? I would think being limited would be detrimental to your life and something you should fear more.

:asian:

 

[MJS]

Cons to Cross Training
1.Time Lost that could spent on one art
2.Won't Specialize in one art
3.Will not Be Master in one Art
4.May Cause confusion
5.Longer Time to learn

Well I have posted both con's and pro's before. An others have too but I was waiting for Steve to also share his opinions?


My Opinions:

1) As I've said many times, IMO, the crosstraining should not start until you have a solid base first. Additionally, you're not giving up on the original art, you're still training it. Only difference is that you're now splitting up time between the arts.

2) See #1. You're not giving up, you're still continuing the learning. I have not stopped Kenpo.

3) See #1 & #2.

4) I gave an example to use when you're doing techs. The attack starts as a punch, then goes to something else, which causes you to adapt to that change. That is the goal...to be able to flow from one to the next. I get the impression that you're not there yet in your training.

5) Whats the rush? Who cares how long it takes. The goal should be to learn, not worry about the time frame between one rank and the next.