Is Cross training detremental to your Life?

[paulus]

From post #19 in the thread:
"I would say that it depends entirely upon four things: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome.

(bolding mine) I think this is the point that is being missed. Success can only be measured in relation to your objective. Whether something is a pro or a con depends on what your desired outcome is.

 

[Xue Sheng]

With all the cross training over so many years, hasn’t a total art emerge yet ?

It depends on how you want to define total. If you are defining it as an art that is perfect for all people for all situation then no because no 2 people are alike. My sifu does his Yang style similar to but not the same as his sifu Tung Ying Chieh. Tung Ying Chieh's oldest son Tung Hu Ling does the form quite different form both of them. However all were/are rather accomplished martial artists and taiji practitioners.

But then it is also yes because frankly, IMO, all the styles of Bagua are total arts as are the styles of Taiji that I know most about as is Xingyiquan in all its variations as is Changquan and tongbie and any of these.

It is really all a matter of what the person training the art is after and what his sifu taught him. It has been discussed as to Ji Jike, Xinyiquan and Xingyiquan that the Dai family did not teach him the full Dai Xinyiquan form, even though his teacher knew it the Dai family did not approve so Ji Jike was taught something similar and went from there based on what he knew and what he was taught Xingyiquan immerged.

Others and this is only my opinion, like Yang Luchan (who was a highly skilled MAist) could not make any money teaching Chen style taijiquan since he was not Chen family so he changed it to his own style Yang style. This of course also showed he had a high level of understanding of the art and the Chen family approved. Also I have no doubt considering the time he lived in China he had to prove his skill more than once.

Any CMA can be and IMO is complete but there are also combinations that were highly sought after for body guards and caravan guard and military teachers. Combinations like Xingyiquan and Baguazhang. Both are, IMO, rather complete but together, if someone could master both systems, they were hard to beat.

Reasons for cross training were many but not all cross trained and some rather impressive fighters trained only 1 style but then some rather impressive fighters trained more than one style as well.

 

[punisher73]

With all the cross training over so many years, hasn’t a total art emerge yet ?

Because, we are all built differently and have different attributes. If you are better at one aspect and have attributes that support that then you willl emphasize that. This is how "styles" first started. The founder found that this set of strategy, tactics, and techniques (supporting those first two) worked best for him in combat.

This leads me to what I think the heart of the article is. I don't think that Cross training is bad, per se....BUT, it has to be something that CAN be integrated into a flawless approach.

To give an example. Let's say that A's approach is to create distance to use kicks. Everything is based on this approach. All upper body movements are designed to either knock your opponent back so you can kick him, or to create time so you can move back to kick him. Now, let's say that B is designed to enter into in-fighting range. It is designed to eliminate the long kicks and stay inside the person's power range. Everything is designed to keep your opponent close while in, and to bridge the gap quickly to get in close.

These are two VASTLY different approaches, if you are a beginner or low rank and try to train both of these at the same time, you are going to be lost when it comes to knowing how to apply it because you are getting two different conflicting paradigms to view fighting. But, let's say you train in A for a very long time and REALLY understand your art and it's strengths and weaknesses, you can start to add alittle bit of B to the mix for those times when you KNOW you can't utilize your base.

If you look at MMA that everyone likes to talk about, this is the approach that these guys use. Most of them came from either a striking background or a grappling background. Chuck Liddell for example added grappling to be able to get back to his feet to implement his striking. Randy Couture added striking to close the distance and get into grappling range safely. There are very few MMA fighters who are equally good at both striking and grappling, usually the one supports the other. There are a couple out there that can, but again they are not the norm.

So I don't think that cross training is completely a bad idea, but you MUST know what you are trying to mix together and have some type of strategic reasoning behind it to fill in gaps of your training.

 

[dungeonworks]

...If you look at MMA that everyone likes to talk about, this is the approach that these guys use. Most of them came from either a striking background or a grappling background. Chuck Liddell for example added grappling to be able to get back to his feet to implement his striking. Randy Couture added striking to close the distance and get into grappling range safely. There are very few MMA fighters who are equally good at both striking and grappling, usually the one supports the other. There are a couple out there that can, but again they are not the norm...

Liddell was a Koei-Kan-Karate-Do stylist before switching to John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo and Kickboxing, while a division I wrestler Cal Poly State. That is what he credits as his grappling escape abilitiy. He had college wrestling before MMA. He trained BJJ with John Lewis in the begginning of his MMA career.

 

[Steve]

Just to add quickly that as more and more people train MMA, the "style" of MMA becomes better synthesized and more integrated. Stand up, clinch, takedowns, ground game all being used to support the others. While it's not uncommon to see fighters working from a base, we're also seeing more and more fighters who are training all ranges equally and are as comfortable and dangerous on the ground as they are on their feet.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Hand Sword and MJS

But what are the pro's and con's to someone who has no base art. Who is just beginning martail Arts?

Also can you guys think of any more pro's and con's I have not mention to cross training?

 

[MJS]

Excellent Post Hand Sword and MJS

But what are the pro's and con's to someone who has no base art. Who is just beginning martail Arts?

Also can you guys think of any more pro's and con's I have not mention to cross training?

Someone should have an art to start with. What the person needs to do, is sit down and figure out what their goals are. What do they want to get out of their training. From that point, they should research arts out there that address those goals.

For example. Lets say they want a stand up art and something that is weapon oriented. Well, there're many standup arts to pick from. Which one they pick will depend on what they like after watching or trying out a class. Lets say they pick Kenpo. So, now, they have an art that addresses stand up, which includes punches, kicks, grabs, and weapons. They train in that art for 5-8 years. By that time, they should be in the upper ranks, if not a BB. Now would be the time to work with a weapon based art, if they choose to. If they don't want to, thats fine. If they want to get a better understanding of the knife, they should look at Kali, Arnis, Sayoc, etc.

 

[Steve]

Someone should have an art to start with. What the person needs to do, is sit down and figure out what their goals are. What do they want to get out of their training. From that point, they should research arts out there that address those goals.

For example. Lets say they want a stand up art and something that is weapon oriented. Well, there're many standup arts to pick from. Which one they pick will depend on what they like after watching or trying out a class. Lets say they pick Kenpo. So, now, they have an art that addresses stand up, which includes punches, kicks, grabs, and weapons. They train in that art for 5-8 years. By that time, they should be in the upper ranks, if not a BB. Now would be the time to work with a weapon based art, if they choose to. If they don't want to, thats fine. If they want to get a better understanding of the knife, they should look at Kali, Arnis, Sayoc, etc.

MJS, I disagree. What is the difference between someone training 3 days per week in BJJ and 3 days per week in, say, TKD and someone training 5 or 6 days per week in Kajukenbo or Krav Maga?

In both, he would be learning multiple ranges. While I'm not saying that having a base art is bad, I'm not sure I buy into the necessity of it. Unless becoming as adept at the base art as possible in the shortest period of time is the goal.

Yoshi, instead of posting more questions, why don't you offer some of your own thoughts?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Stevebjj said"Yoshi, instead of posting more questions, why don't you offer some of your own thoughts? "

*Steve I have done so...But My questions were advoided! Still waiting for you to pose one little con to training two arts at the same time with no base art to fall back on!

 

[seasoned]

Paragraph taken from Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming’s book entitled, “The Essence of Shaolin White Crane”. It is well known in China that in order to compete and survive in a battle against other martial styles, each martial style must contain four basic categories of fighting techniques. They are: hand striking, kicking, wrestling and Qin na (seizing and controlling techniques). When these techniques were exported to Japan, they splintered over time to become many styles. For example, punching and kicking became Karate, wrestling became Judo, and Qin Na became Jujitsu.
This paragraph of Dr.Yang above, makes sense to me, in the respect that arts of old needed to contain all aspects of battle, or they would be useless. It also makes sense that when these traditional arts modernized, they lost some of there original intent, “to win in battle, at all cost“. Now in these modern times, traditional arts, seem to some, to be, the old antiquated way, with there stick in the mud robotic, and seemingly boring useless techniques. I did these useless kata, for many years, along with the many drills, because they were promotion requirements. It wasn’t until I began to cross train and share ideas with friends from other arts, that I discovered that my original base art, of Okinawan GoJu contained a vast storehouse of knowledge, as shown to me by friends from other arts, when they would say, hey that looks like the way we do this or that. It was this cross training that pointed me back to my first love, GoJu. “Is cross training detrimental to your life”? I guess I would have to say No, because the techniques I had been doing for many years, when looked at from another view points, took on a whole new life. Some of you are younger then I, and have different view points, and that is ok. At my age , if need be, I have to act fast and decisive, because if I break something it will take forever to heal. So if I can get everything I need for my purpose, in one art, and it happens to be the one I have done all my life, I guess it works for me. J :asian:

 

[Hand Sword]

This is almost pointless as the fears of cross training which were bothering the mind (s) have been addressed adequately. However, yet another question appears to carry on the argument. Here would be a con for someone with no base art that cross trains. How about gaining a preference for one style over another and spending more time and practice to it than the others. Now, you getting good at one manner of defense but not as much with the others.

However, this will lead one to the ways already discussed, where your favored way becomes your base art, then the additions come here and there. So it's not a problem, or life threatening in the long run, though maybe so in the beginning, as all the skills are not developed enough. However that can also be agrued for ALL STYLES being trained by begginers. So, ultimately that, as it universally applies to ALL, should end this debate IMHO.
:asian:

 

[dungeonworks]

From post #19 in the thread:
"I would say that it depends entirely upon four things: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome.

Once again, and I know I sound like a broken record, my belief is that it's not often the techniques involved, but how they're trained that makes the difference. If the techniques are poorly integrated, it would have more to do with how the person trains than what they're training. Poorly integrated technique occurs all the time even in one style as a result of poor training. Crosstraining has little to do with it.

The intent seems to be to conclude that it's either bad or good to crosstrain, or that one should only crosstrain if the moons are in alignment or the timing is otherwise right. I disagree with any hard and fast conclusion. It all depends on the person, the styles involved, the desired outcome and how the person trains."

From post #37
"I won't argue against having a primary style, but I would say that it really depends. For some, I'm sure you're right. But I can learn to play two things at once. Most people can. While it certainly does depend upon the person, I think you're selling most people short."

post 45
"I would say that aikido taught by a competent aikido instructor is aikido. Just as Judo taught by a competent Judo instructor is Judo.

As a blue belt in BJJ, I am learning BJJ from a competent BJJ instructor, and have been for a few years now. I am not, however, competent myself to TEACH BJJ. So, while what I'm learning is teh r34l BJJ, I wouldn't then go to a Karate school and presume to uke for them with the idea that if they can beat me, they can defeat "a grappler." Make sense?"

The rest of my posts were mostly elaborating or attempting to clarify these posts which, I believe, outline my opinion pretty well. I haven't been evasive. I've simply not played your childish game.

I would personally attribute this to the four things I mentioned in my first post in this thread: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome.

Just to add quickly that as more and more people train MMA, the "style" of MMA becomes better synthesized and more integrated. Stand up, clinch, takedowns, ground game all being used to support the others. While it's not uncommon to see fighters working from a base, we're also seeing more and more fighters who are training all ranges equally and are as comfortable and dangerous on the ground as they are on their feet.

It looks like there is none in Steve's opinion, which I totally agree.

Stevebjj said"Yoshi, instead of posting more questions, why don't you offer some of your own thoughts? "

*Steve I have done so...But My questions were advoided! Still waiting for you to pose one little con to training two arts at the same time with no base art to fall back on!

I think you will be waiting a looooong time. The question posted is one of opinion, and we all have one.

I still do not understand why you think cross training is detrimental to your life??? You don't need to be a martial artist to know how to fight. I know heaps of untrained guys that hold there own quite well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Paragraph taken from Dr. Yang, Jwing-ming’s book entitled, “The Essence of Shaolin White Crane”. It is well known in China that in order to compete and survive in a battle against other martial styles, each martial style must contain four basic categories of fighting techniques. They are: hand striking, kicking, wrestling and Qin na (seizing and controlling techniques). When these techniques were exported to Japan, they splintered over time to become many styles. For example, punching and kicking became Karate, wrestling became Judo, and Qin Na became Jujitsu.
This paragraph of Dr.Yang above, makes sense to me, in the respect that arts of old needed to contain all aspects of battle, or they would be useless. It also makes sense that when these traditional arts modernized, they lost some of there original intent, “to win in battle, at all cost“. Now in these modern times, traditional arts, seem to some, to be, the old antiquated way, with there stick in the mud robotic, and seemingly boring useless techniques. I did these useless kata, for many years, along with the many drills, because they were promotion requirements. It wasn’t until I began to cross train and share ideas with friends from other arts, that I discovered that my original base art, of Okinawan GoJu contained a vast storehouse of knowledge, as shown to me by friends from other arts, when they would say, hey that looks like the way we do this or that. It was this cross training that pointed me back to my first love, GoJu. “Is cross training detrimental to your life”? I guess I would have to say No, because the techniques I had been doing for many years, when looked at from another view points, took on a whole new life. Some of you are younger then I, and have different view points, and that is ok. At my age , if need be, I have to act fast and decisive, because if I break something it will take forever to heal. So if I can get everything I need for my purpose, in one art, and it happens to be the one I have done all my life, I guess it works for me. J :asian:

Absolulty 100% agree

I learned volumes about Taiji and Xingyiquan way back when I use to be part of a group of people form multiple styles (JMA, KMA and CMA) that got together and spared. Got my butt kicked by a Southern Praying Mantis guy back then and it was so very cool too :EG:

If you look deeply at just about any CMA style you will find hand striking, kicking, wrestling and Qinna. However I am betting (and I only bet on sure things) that at least 85% of the taiji people out there today know nothing about any of it.... It is just for health after all Sadly, in my area I see Bagua going the same route. However it seems as if Xingyiquan is not, but then Xingyi is not pretty to look at and it is fairly easy to see it is for fighting. But then that just means Xingyi dies another death because people are afraid of it... it is just to violent looking... and what the hell is the deal with all that painful stance training :EG:. But I am now heading down the road to off topic.

 

[Steve]

It looks like there is none in Steve's opinion, which I totally agree.

I think you will be waiting a looooong time. The question posted is one of opinion, and we all have one.

I still do not understand why you think cross training is detrimental to your life??? You don't need to be a martial artist to know how to fight. I know heaps of untrained guys that hold there own quite well.

Or you could look at is as I've already posted pros and cons.

*Steve I have done so...But My questions were advoided! Still waiting for you to pose one little con to training two arts at the same time with no base art to fall back on!

Yoshi, I haven't avoided your questions. My position is that your questions are disengenuous, and also that they have already been answered. You just seem to me to want other people to do all of the heavy lifting in this thread.

I'm not sure how much more clear it can get this this: "I would say that it depends entirely upon four things: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome." But maybe if I say it in another way, you will understand.

Crosstraining can be counterproductive if one is not physically, mentally or emotionally capable of it, if the styles are inherently contradictory, if one doesn't train in an effective manner, or if one's desired outcome is mastery of a single style in the most efficient manner.

I'll say it in another way, just to be clear: Crosstraining is particularly effective and valuable if the person involved is physically, mentally and emotionally capable of it, if the styles are complimentary, if one trains diligently and effectively and if it suits one's goals.

So, I have taken my original position, which I still think is very straightforward, and reworded it so that it addresses the negative and the positive. I just want to make it very clear that all three statements represent the same position.

 

[Steve]

Absolulty 100% agree

I learned volumes about Taiji and Xingyiquan way back when I use to be part of a group of people form multiple styles (JMA, KMA and CMA) that got together and spared. Got my butt kicked by a Southern Praying Mantis guy back then and it was so very cool too :EG:

If you look deeply at just about any CMA style you will find hand striking, kicking, wrestling and Qinna. However I am betting (and I only bet on sure things) that at least 85% of the taiji people out there today know nothing about any of it.... It is just for health after all Sadly, in my area I see Bagua going the same route. However it seems as if Xingyiquan is not, but then Xingyi is not pretty to look at and it is fairly easy to see it is for fighting. But then that just means Xingyi dies another death because people are afraid of it... it is just to violent looking... and what the hell is the deal with all that painful stance training :EG:. But I am now heading down the road to off topic.

I just want to say that it's very interesting reading about the different forms of CMA and crosstraining. I don't know a lot about the specific styles, so I appreciate the dialogue.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Would it be bad to train two styles that are contradictory?

Especially after you have specialize in one style Like Boxing or Karate...What would be wrong to supplement your boxing with a style that is contradictory and learn how to switch from one to the other.

Or you could look at is as I've already posted pros and cons.
Yoshi, I haven't avoided your questions. My position is that your questions are disengenuous, and also that they have already been answered. You just seem to me to want other people to do all of the heavy lifting in this thread.

I'm not sure how much more clear it can get this this: "I would say that it depends entirely upon four things: the person, the styles involved, HOW the person is training and the desired outcome." But maybe if I say it in another way, you will understand.

Crosstraining can be counterproductive if one is not physically, mentally or emotionally capable of it, if the styles are inherently contradictory, if one doesn't train in an effective manner, or if one's desired outcome is mastery of a single style in the most efficient manner.

I'll say it in another way, just to be clear: Crosstraining is particularly effective and valuable if the person involved is physically, mentally and emotionally capable of it, if the styles are complimentary, if one trains diligently and effectively and if it suits one's goals.

So, I have taken my original position, which I still think is very straightforward, and reworded it so that it addresses the negative and the positive. I just want to make it very clear that all three statements represent the same position.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Would it be bad to train two styles that are contradictory?

Especially after you have specialize in one style Like Boxing or Karate...What would be wrong to supplement your boxing with a style that is contradictory and learn how to switch from one to the other.

No. Because as humans we are thinkers it would be modified to fit your needs. The modification might be to not use the chamber that Karate uses but instead use the boxing type punches. Instead of a boxing stance you might use a cat stance. To quote Bruce Lee "Absorb what is useful"

 

[Steve]

Would it be bad to train two styles that are contradictory?

Especially after you have specialize in one style Like Boxing or Karate...What would be wrong to supplement your boxing with a style that is contradictory and learn how to switch from one to the other.

I would say it depends upon the person and what he or she hopes or expects to gain.

What do you think?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay what if some one practice both arts to where they could comfortably switch or mix the two. Meaning one minute they fighting a guy Using Karate. The guy is adjust to their Karate attacks and is able to defend against them So all the sudden the guy changes to Leopard Kung Fu. An starts attacking High and Low. Which totally throws off his opponent and now he has to reaccess his strategy to defend. Because now the Karate guys movements,stances and foot work have changed to Leopard. An he is attacking as a leopard fighter would oppose to Karate.


Are another instance would be. On minute your fighting. Your using boxing. The guy your fighting adjust an is now able to land a couple of hits to your face. Your bobbing and weaving cease to work. An he is skilled enough to evade or deflect your boxing punches. So you switch styles to lets say Tae Kwon Do or Long Fist. He will have a hard time adapting now you switch. He will have to reaccess your movements and re-adapt. The small time will be what you need to destroy him. While his mind is in temporary shock an his guards tend to be easier to infiltrate then you can switch back to boxing an hit him with good ole two piece on his chin. Put your hip into it.

No. Because as humans we are thinkers it would be modified to fit your needs. The modification might be to not use the chamber that Karate uses but instead use the boxing type punches. Instead of a boxing stance you might use a cat stance. To quote Bruce Lee "Absorb what is useful"

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yoshiyahu it doesn't really work like that.

I was saying in training the styles you will adapt and modify.

In a real fight situation you are not going to be thinking one sec I will use Karate and next sec I will use another style. It becomes see an opening take an opening create an opening. Real fights are fast.

As Wang shu jin says"a fight should take 3 strikes any more is sloppy"

I cross train and I never think ok I will use Bagua here and Hsing yi here and oh jujutsu here. It becomes opening-strike another opening-strike.

Meaning based on the fight techniques and tactics come out of it.