Is Cross training detremental to your Life?

[Tez3]

I don't believe cross training damages you however when training cross I usually end up hurting my knuckles.

 

[Eru Ilúvatar]

styles are somewhat artifical boundries set on a collection of techniques. fighting is fighting, & effective principles are universal. all styles have the same basic principles; primarily it is just the terminology & emphasis that changes.

a martial artist should be encouraged to develop their own personal style to some extent. once they do that, any art can be theirs with proper training. i'll use myself as an example:

when i box, i like to bore in; i use direct footwork coupled with circular blocks & head movement to get infront of my opponent, uproot him, then hit him.

when i do judo, i use footwork & gripping to get inside my opponent, uproot him, & throw him.

when i do jujitsu, i use circular motions with my hands & legs to get close to my opponent, then isolate a limb & attack it. isolating a limb is the same as uprooting for all intents in purposes, you're just uprooting an arm or a leg instead of a whole body.

so that's my personal style. i like to get close & destroy balance. whatever attack i do once i get there is subjective. bruce lee once said a punch is just a punch, a kick is just a kick. i think if you have a good understanding of cross training, then an attack is just an attack, a defense is just a defense.

jf

i think that it is important to have a base art. often the reason people have difficulties with crosstraining is because they are thinking of the different arts as truly different, rather than individual expressions of the same idea. you can't see the similarities in principles if you don't even understand the principles of the art you're coming from. now i don't think that means you can't study two arts at once as a beginner, but one of them should get most of your attention.

For me this was the highlight of the thread. Jarrod, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

No, I am not basing my train of thought off a movie. I utlize the movies lines as a simple comparison most people interested in Kung Fu would be able to relate too. But if I wanted to based it on something. I would base it on the words of Grand Masters and Masters who have actually fought and sparred full contact fights. Who thus said it is dangerous. Anyway. As for your comment. Let me add upon it. Lets say you train Karate only. An you get with a bunch of guys from different styles. You start a fight club and all of you challenge and fight one another. Over time you adapt your Karate to be able to defeat, defend and attack people of different skill sets. You adapt and evolve by fighting different styles. This is not the same as cross training. True you get experience but its not corss training.

You said:

We used to box and wrestle in friends basements or yards all the time. There were many things I picked up from just doing that and as a result had positive effects for me in actual fights...especially in getting off of the ground.

I totally agree we should fight people of other styles to evolve and learn more about our own art. Discovering our personal limitations and what we need to improve or innovate.

Are you basing this train of thought off of a movie???

Even high ranking people in (insert any art here) can lose to untrained fighters. There are people that maybe grew up in bad areas and "learned on the fly" or were picked on and had to fight a lot in their youth and had to back themselves up. Then you have people with naturally athletic attributes and are naturally quicker and tougher. We used to box and wrestle in friends basements or yards all the time. There were many things I picked up from just doing that and as a result had positive effects for me in actual fights...especially in getting off of the ground. Cross training would be no different in this aspect because you are going to react wether you are a master in one or master in none. There are "masters" out there that never even been in a street fight, let alone sparred with contact.

 

[MJS]

No, I am not basing my train of thought off a movie. I utlize the movies lines as a simple comparison most people interested in Kung Fu would be able to relate too. But if I wanted to based it on something. I would base it on the words of Grand Masters and Masters who have actually fought and sparred full contact fights. Who thus said it is dangerous.

So in other words, instead of finding things out for yourself, you always take the word of someone else? This sounds like a page out of a thread that I've been involved in, where I was debating with some hardcore MMA people. These folks were so deadset in saying that X would not work because its never been used in the ring, or X wouldn't work because Rickson doesn't use it, so it must be a low percentage move. BTW, I'm not intending this to be a shot at MMA people, but I'm sure we've all seen what I'm talking about.

IMHO, each and every person should find out what works for THEM. I hate the line of, "Well, my Master said it works and his Master said it works, and, and, and......." Sorry, but we're all built differently, so what this persons "master" says, may not apply to each and every person.

 

[Steve]

No, I am not basing my train of thought off a movie. I utlize the movies lines as a simple comparison most people interested in Kung Fu would be able to relate too. But if I wanted to based it on something. I would base it on the words of Grand Masters and Masters who have actually fought and sparred full contact fights. Who thus said it is dangerous.

But do you train as these Grand Masters of yore trained? You even say "the way the grand masters who have actually fought and sparred full contact fights"? Isn't that the secret ingredient? That to me is crucial.

I may have the golf swing of Tiger Woods, able to drive a golf ball over 300 yards on the driving range. If I don't every play a round of golf, my skills are incomplete because I haven't integrated my training. I've never dealt with a bad lie, rain, fatigue or noise.

I said this in the other BJJ/WC thread, but it's relevant here. It's telling to me that the people who are referenced as authorities all seem to have cross trained, and all seem to have sparred full contact, and all seem to have applied the techniques in what is now commonly referred to as an "alive" way of training using the three I's of Introduction, Isolation and Integration. It seems to me to be very much a "do as I say, not as I do" situation, and I think it does you a disservice. I can't take credit for effectiveness based upon what my teacher or his teacher are able to do unless I actually walk the walk.

Or said another way, Helio Gracie is a badass. I am not, even though we both train BJJ.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay. So in other words you want me to share my personal experiences on why I feel Cross training is determental? Is that what your saying?
My opinion is different. But I am more bias to reason for cross training. But let me say this. I don't think cross training will make you a better fighter. It may give you an edge over some people but not all. To become a better fighter you have to fight alot. You need to fight people of all skill levels and you need fight people of other styles An learn from your experiences not other people words or martial arts systems or principals. You learn ten different styles with 10 different principals each. That won't make you a better figther than Mr. Chung Wong the Tiger Claw Fighter who has been fighting and sparring people of different styles for twenty years. Chong Wong is a totally ficticous charater so no need to google him...lol...

My point is this if your cross training to fill the gaps of your style....you may be doing it for the wrong reasons.

So in other words, instead of finding things out for yourself, you always take the word of someone else? This sounds like a page out of a thread that I've been involved in, where I was debating with some hardcore MMA people. These folks were so deadset in saying that X would not work because its never been used in the ring, or X wouldn't work because Rickson doesn't use it, so it must be a low percentage move. BTW, I'm not intending this to be a shot at MMA people, but I'm sure we've all seen what I'm talking about.

IMHO, each and every person should find out what works for THEM. I hate the line of, "Well, my Master said it works and his Master said it works, and, and, and......." Sorry, but we're all built differently, so what this persons "master" says, may not apply to each and every person.

 

[Steve]

Okay. So in other words you want me to share my personal experiences on why I feel Cross training is determental? Is that what your saying?
.

Not quite what I was getting at. I'm presuming that what you've been sharing are your personal experiences and opinions. What I was driving at is that you can't use someone else's skill as evidence of your own current or potential future skill unless your training is equivalent. You have to have all the pieces. If I trained in Western Boxing but only ever hit the bags and shadow boxed, I'd NEVER progress pass a certain point. Cross training becomes academic because I won't ever integrate even the skills within my primary discipline. I can't use Muhammed Ali as an example as his training is fundamentally different than my own even though the style is the same.

That's what is continuously done in these threads. You denounce cross training but do so using flawed logic.

I have no problems with whether someone cross trains or not. I can see both sides of the coin and as I've said, I think it's very, very subjective depending upon the four criteria I mentioned earlier.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That being said...its simple...if you want to crosstrain, do it. If you don't, then don't. Its that simple. I would suggest not crosstraining until you have a solid base art first. In other words, wait until you're in the advanced/black belt ranks. So that should put you in your base art somewhere around 5-6 yrs. If you can't understand the base system by that time, may as well hang up your belt. It should not take 30yrs.

Agreed, no sense in me repeating it here

IMHO, each and every person should find out what works for THEM. I hate the line of, "Well, my Master said it works and his Master said it works, and, and, and......." Sorry, but we're all built differently, so what this persons "master" says, may not apply to each and every person.

Again agreed

 

[MJS]

Okay. So in other words you want me to share my personal experiences on why I feel Cross training is determental? Is that what your saying?

Did you read what I said? I said for each person to decide for themselves what works for them, not to go by what works for 10 other people. Everyone is different.

My opinion is different. But I am more bias to reason for cross training. But let me say this. I don't think cross training will make you a better fighter. It may give you an edge over some people but not all. To become a better fighter you have to fight alot. You need to fight people of all skill levels and you need fight people of other styles An learn from your experiences not other people words or martial arts systems or principals. You learn ten different styles with 10 different principals each. That won't make you a better figther than Mr. Chung Wong the Tiger Claw Fighter who has been fighting and sparring people of different styles for twenty years. Chong Wong is a totally ficticous charater so no need to google him...lol...

Nothing will give you a 100% guarentee that it will work. You're preaching to the choir my friend.

My point is this if your cross training to fill the gaps of your style....you may be doing it for the wrong reasons.

As I've said oh, probably a thousand times now...any art has the ability to defend against weapons, grabs, knives, guns, grapplers, etc. However, as I have already said, it may be necessary to expand by training with someone who specializes in a certain area. Again, if someone doesn't want to, thats fine. Speaking for myself, I like to train in BJJ and Arnis, as they're both arts that specialize in particular areas. I've made changes to my Kenpo with both arts. Again, I still atempt to keep with the Kenpo defense, but the other arts have expanded my knowledge.

 

[jarrod]

some people really over-analyze this issue. i like to make candles. i don't make candles to fill the gaps in my hobby of playing guitar. i just like to play guitar & make candles.

jf

 

[Xue Sheng]

some people really over-analyze this issue. i like to make candles. i don't make candles to fill the gaps in my hobby of playing guitar. i just like to play guitar & make candles.

jf

But would it be ok to make guitar shaped candles

 

[dungeonworks]

It should be since they share the same core principles....strings. :ultracool

 

[Steve]

Technically, it's a wick. Confusing a wick and a string in a moment of crisis could be a disaster. And that's why cross training is bad.

Reminds me of Princess Bride: "Truly you have a dizzying intellect." "Wait til I get going!"

 

[jarrod]

actually i use cloth strings for the wick. sometimes, i do get confused: i pluck my wicks & burn my guitar strings.

i guess cross-training can be detrimental.

jf

 

[Xue Sheng]

OH MAN..Now you all have me so confused I filled my guitar full of wax and lit the strings or are the wicks.....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I did agree with one point...let me share.....


Someone said something about taking the stretches from like TKD and using them to become more flexible. This is probably what my Sifu did. Because he taught me strecthes from my head to my toes. But these same streches I also see in Phyiscal education and even in many Shaolin and Gung fu books. Also many of streches bruce lee did are also from Shaolin and Gung Fu books. I see track runners and other atheletes using the same streches as Tae Kwon Do. But I think the best Stecthing formula would come from Ballet in my humble opion. Because they are most limber I have ever seen. Of course the streching regiment of Karate would come next and then after that would be Tae Kwn Do. But either way. If you practice TKD Kicks, Some Judo throws,Some Aikido arm Locks. In my opinion your still doing Wing Chun. Wing Chun doesn't kick above the waist that often. But that doesn't mean Wing Chun can not kick High. It just usually tries to choose the most direct path. But their are always exceptions to rule in actual fight and in training. For one When you train Wing Chun you need to be able to throw High kicks in order to do partner drills where you can defend against high round house kicks to head. You need to work on joint locks and throws so you know how to apply them in Wing Chun. Wing Chun uses grappling and Chin Na. So you have Judo and Aikido also with in the WC system.

Wing Chun fights inside mostly. But Wing Chun can fight outside too. Wing Chun doesn't usually throw long punches but it does in demostration to show defenses.

So the principals of Wing Chun are designed to give you the best advantage in a fight.

But exceptions to every rule...

In Wing Chun you can throw long puncs
Throw High Kicks
Do Wrestling moves(Feel your opponent on the ground)
Inact Chin Na techniques


But there is nothing wrong with Cross training for fun. But its for combat purposes there may be a problem. You need contact sparring with people of other styles and those in your system more skilled than you. Now there is nothing wrong with drawing from other systems in a fight either.

How ever we agree to agree on these issues:

*A beginner in any art shouldn't cross train two arts until he has foundation in atleast one art first.

*A person who cross trains should have one style that is main style that he draws from.

But I do say study Throws and Joint Lock techniques Study High kicks. Study Wrestling. But study your WC more. Do not neglect your WC to go train in another style for two years and keep flip flopping...

I feel training two new styles at once is extremely hard. Like if your a golden glove boxer and start training Karate and Tae Kwon Do to increase your hard style combat with kicks and chops along with aerial Kicks and high stamina kicks. It will be harder to become one with the two new styles. It will take longer for your body to comform to both styles. It will take longer to remember the basics and forms too. These are some draw backs in my humble Opinion I am now facing. But any way You may feel differently thats cool.


Personally I think Wing Chun is a great style that doesn't need any cross training to become a better fighter. I also feel the same about Five Animals, Xing Yi Quan, Tai Chi Chaun, Eagle Claw, Pak Mei, Bagua Zhang etc. If you practice these styles and progress to a mastery level you won't need another style to supplement them.

But I do see a benefit to cross training. Its about being deceptive. Like for instance. When I spar or fight. I throw up a boxing guard. This way the average street fighter feels comfortable. An he expects to fight a boxers fight. Then When the clinch comes inside fighting springs up. Along with some wing chun kicks. When distance is regain then outside long fighting comes. Long Kicks and Long Punches. So inside they are terrorize and outside they are terrorize.

Not quite what I was getting at. I'm presuming that what you've been sharing are your personal experiences and opinions. What I was driving at is that you can't use someone else's skill as evidence of your own current or potential future skill unless your training is equivalent. You have to have all the pieces. If I trained in Western Boxing but only ever hit the bags and shadow boxed, I'd NEVER progress pass a certain point. Cross training becomes academic because I won't ever integrate even the skills within my primary discipline. I can't use Muhammed Ali as an example as his training is fundamentally different than my own even though the style is the same.

That's what is continuously done in these threads. You denounce cross training but do so using flawed logic.

I have no problems with whether someone cross trains or not. I can see both sides of the coin and as I've said, I think it's very, very subjective depending upon the four criteria I mentioned earlier.

 

[Steve]

Yoshi. What you're doing isn't judo or aikido. I wouldn't go to a science teacher to learn French and I wouldn't pretend to learn some judo from a WC sifu. This was exactly my criticism on the Emin video posted by Sije. In that video, he "defended" against flawed technique.

I won't argue against having a primary style, but I would say that it really depends. For some, I'm sure you're right. But I can learn to play two things at once. Most people can. While it certainly does depend upon the person, I think you're selling most people short.

 

[jarrod]

I feel training two new styles at once is extremely hard. Like if your a golden glove boxer and start training Karate and Tae Kwon Do to increase your hard style combat with kicks and chops along with aerial Kicks and high stamina kicks. It will be harder to become one with the two new styles. It will take longer for your body to comform to both styles. It will take longer to remember the basics and forms too. These are some draw backs in my humble Opinion I am now facing. But any way You may feel differently thats cool.

on another thread along this topic i mentioned that all styles are the product of crosstraining. what you described here (karate & boxing) is just kickboxing, & it's really not any more difficult to learn than anything else. the only difference is whether you train them already synthesized (kickboxing) or seperate (karate & boxing).

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

What is your definition of Aikido?

What is your definition of Judo?

I have taken both. An I can say with in the WC system I learn there are already aspects of both Judo and Aikido with in system. You just need to consult your sifu about the techniques to learn how to drill them...

Yoshi. What you're doing isn't judo or aikido. I wouldn't go to a science teacher to learn French and I wouldn't pretend to learn some judo from a WC sifu. This was exactly my criticism on the Emin video posted by Sije. In that video, he "defended" against flawed technique.

I won't argue against having a primary style, but I would say that it really depends. For some, I'm sure you're right. But I can learn to play two things at once. Most people can. While it certainly does depend upon the person, I think you're selling most people short.

 

[jarrod]

so if i have one of my jujitsu students attack me with lots of forward pressure & linear punches, am i learning to fight against wing chun? or am i learning to fight against a jujitsuka imitating WC?

jf