Is Cross training detremental to your Life?

[Xue Sheng]

Would it be bad to train two styles that are contradictory?

Especially after you have specialize in one style Like Boxing or Karate...What would be wrong to supplement your boxing with a style that is contradictory and learn how to switch from one to the other.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by contradictory styles

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Well in your opinion...What two styles would not supplement one another. Name two styles that are totally the opposite?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by contradictory styles

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well in your opinion...What two styles would not supplement one another. Name two styles that are totally the opposite?

Maybe that is the problem; I don't see any styles as totally opposite.

 

[Steve]

Okay what if some one practice both arts to where they could comfortably switch or mix the two. Meaning one minute they fighting a guy Using Karate. The guy is adjust to their Karate attacks and is able to defend against them So all the sudden the guy changes to Leopard Kung Fu. An starts attacking High and Low. Which totally throws off his opponent and now he has to reaccess his strategy to defend. Because now the Karate guys movements,stances and foot work have changed to Leopard. An he is attacking as a leopard fighter would oppose to Karate.

Are another instance would be. On minute your fighting. Your using boxing. The guy your fighting adjust an is now able to land a couple of hits to your face. Your bobbing and weaving cease to work. An he is skilled enough to evade or deflect your boxing punches. So you switch styles to lets say Tae Kwon Do or Long Fist. He will have a hard time adapting now you switch. He will have to reaccess your movements and re-adapt. The small time will be what you need to destroy him. While his mind is in temporary shock an his guards tend to be easier to infiltrate then you can switch back to boxing an hit him with good ole two piece on his chin. Put your hip into it.

Wouldn't this be the antithesis of synthesis? (forgive the bad rhyme). I don't know why you would want to cross train and keep the styles distinct. I'm sir it's possible, as people fight with multiple rulesets and do demonstrations and the like. But for SD it doesn't seem the way to go.

I guess it goes back to desired intent.

 

[dungeonworks]

I watched a Paul Vunak video today...he mixed up a lot of stuff and put them to some Wing Chun principles. It was about trapping. Really good stuff Yoshi, I think you would have seen how many arts can be combined. Some combine better than others. If you get a chance to see Paul Vunak's JKD stuff it is really good, and a great example of self defense oriented MMA, not the sport variety.

 

[MJS]

MJS, I disagree. What is the difference between someone training 3 days per week in BJJ and 3 days per week in, say, TKD and someone training 5 or 6 days per week in Kajukenbo or Krav Maga?

In both, he would be learning multiple ranges. While I'm not saying that having a base art is bad, I'm not sure I buy into the necessity of it. Unless becoming as adept at the base art as possible in the shortest period of time is the goal.

Yoshi, instead of posting more questions, why don't you offer some of your own thoughts?

Hey Steve,

Yes, I see your point.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Some have said that certain stlyes are supplementary or go together.

So I was woundering what arts don't go together?

Maybe that is the problem; I don't see any styles as totally opposite.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some have said that certain stlyes are supplementary or go together.

So I was woundering what arts don't go together?

I guess this is my take on this.

I do believe that Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are great together but I do not think it is a good idea to learn them both at the same time. Pick one, train it for a few years and then work on the other. However a few years could be anywhere form 5 to 10 depending on the sifu and how much the student trains. I have always felt that Judo and Wing Chun would compliment each other quite well too. However again not at the same time. Learn one first and then work on the other.

However I do not feel it is necessary to take both Xingyi and Bagua, either if trained properly and understood works rather well all by itself and the same goes for Wing Chun and Judo.

At this point I do not see two styles that do not go together but you need to REALLY learn one before you move onto, or add another IMO.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I totally agree with you...one art should be your main art and you should be competent in one art first...Then add another...your are correct Xue!!!

I guess this is my take on this.

I do believe that Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are great together but I do not think it is a good idea to learn them both at the same time. Pick one, train it for a few years and then work on the other. However a few years could be anywhere form 5 to 10 depending on the sifu and how much the student trains. I have always felt that Judo and Wing Chun would compliment each other quite well too. However again not at the same time. Learn one first and then work on the other.

However I do not feel it is necessary to take both Xingyi and Bagua, either if trained properly and understood works rather well all by itself and the same goes for Wing Chun and Judo.

At this point I do not see two styles that do not go together but you need to REALLY learn one before you move onto, or add another IMO.

 

[Steve]

I'd like to find out from you guys a little bit more about why you think that it's essential to have a base art prior to crosstraining. I don't see it as being crucial. Certainly a legitimate way to do things, but do you really think it's vital? Why?

 

[MJS]

Okay what if some one practice both arts to where they could comfortably switch or mix the two. Meaning one minute they fighting a guy Using Karate. The guy is adjust to their Karate attacks and is able to defend against them So all the sudden the guy changes to Leopard Kung Fu. An starts attacking High and Low. Which totally throws off his opponent and now he has to reaccess his strategy to defend. Because now the Karate guys movements,stances and foot work have changed to Leopard. An he is attacking as a leopard fighter would oppose to Karate.


Are another instance would be. On minute your fighting. Your using boxing. The guy your fighting adjust an is now able to land a couple of hits to your face. Your bobbing and weaving cease to work. An he is skilled enough to evade or deflect your boxing punches. So you switch styles to lets say Tae Kwon Do or Long Fist. He will have a hard time adapting now you switch. He will have to reaccess your movements and re-adapt. The small time will be what you need to destroy him. While his mind is in temporary shock an his guards tend to be easier to infiltrate then you can switch back to boxing an hit him with good ole two piece on his chin. Put your hip into it.

I disagree. As I've said many times, which you're obviously missing, this is the goal of training..to be able to adapt to whats presented to you. People I train with do it all the time, BJJ people do it all the time...its not as difficult as you're making it seem. IMHO, you are not there yet, due to you constantly asking this question. This is why it seems to be so confusing for you. Keep in mind, just because YOU can't do it, does not mean others can't.

 

[Sukerkin]

Why is this still rumbling on?

It's simple, truly. If you want to be amongst the best of those that practise an art then only practise that art (assuming you have a talent for it).

If you want to quickly get 'rough' enough to be able to have a fight in the street against untrained people, then simultaneously train in different arts - just don't expect to particularly excellent in any of them.

As I said in my earlier post, I have seen from my own experience that multi-art training makes someone hard to spar with early on but easy to deal with later.

Other peoples milage may vary and there are a multitude of ifs-buts-and-maybes but that has been my experience.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd like to find out from you guys a little bit more about why you think that it's essential to have a base art prior to crosstraining. I don't see it as being crucial. Certainly a legitimate way to do things, but do you really think it's vital? Why?

I don't feel it is essential to have a base art before you cross train

It all depends on your goal.

If your goal (for example) is to be a Hung Ga person and if your goal is to understand Hung Ga you need to focus in Hung Ga and understand it and how it works and how it approaches SD before you go off and learn another style like Savate which would have a whole different take on fighting. If you train both and then go off and say I know Hung Ga and you are doing savate and hung ga together it is then neither Hung Ga or Savate it is something else, possible rather effective but it is neither style. However if your goal is to learn how to fight and you are not really interested in associating with any one art then train whatever you like cross train as much as you feel you need to.


It all depends on what you are after and want to get out of training Martial arts.

 

[Steve]

Why is this still rumbling on?

It's simple, truly. If you want to be amongst the best of those that practise an art then only practise that art (assuming you have a talent for it).

If you want to quickly get 'rough' enough to be able to have a fight in the street against untrained people, then simultaneously train in different arts - just don't expect to particularly excellent in any of them.

As I said in my earlier post, I have seen from my own experience that multi-art training makes someone hard to spar with early on but easy to deal with later.

Other peoples milage may vary and there are a multitude of ifs-buts-and-maybes but that has been my experience.

I just don't know that I buy it. Quick early progress but you believe that crosstraining somehow stunts longterm growth in skill? You say that this has been in your experience and I don't doubt that it's true. What do you think leads to this? Was it the crosstraining leading to problems long term, or was it the students? The idea that most peoples can't learn two things simultaneously, whether they be related or not, just doesn't make sense to me. It's counter to everything I know about how human beings, particularly adults learn.

This is what I'm wondering from the group at large. Many people have suggested that crosstraining without a base art is bad, or now that it's okay short term but not long term. Can I ask for some more specifics on why you think this is so?

Of course, there would need to be some structure and discipline, and a well defined curriculum would be necessary.

It's similar to the question I asked earlier to MJS, whether there is a difference between learning two styles simultaneously and learning multiple ranges in one school. Would learning grappling and striking within a single style, such as Kajukenbo, be better than learning grappling and striking seperately. On the one hand, you have what is hopefully a fully synthesized system. On the other, you have expert instruction from specialists, and the ability to synthesize the material yourself.

This holds true, in my opinion, for most styles.

 

[MJS]

Why is this still rumbling on?

I was asking myself the same thing, in addition to wondering why I was even still involved in the thread. I think its time to pack my bags. I'm tired, very tired of beating the dead horse.

 

[Steve]

fair enough. Forget I asked.

 

[Sukerkin]

It wasn't an unreasonable question in and of itself,Steve and in another context I'd be more than happy to discuss where the fallacy has come from that you can learn more than one complex thing to the highest expertise.

As a precis, look at Decathlete records compared to those of discipline specific athletes as possibly the most accessable evidence that multi-discipline training will result in lower 'peaks' in skill level. Or for a martial arts reference (and meaning no insult to my bretheren), the swordsmanship of someone who practises only iai will be more polished than someone who does katori - splitting the focus has consequences.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post Sukerkin. I think you have summarize everything I been thinking all along but was unable to put into eloquent words suce as yours...I am greatful for your sharing!

It wasn't an unreasonable question in and of itself,Steve and in another context I'd be more than happy to discuss where the fallacy has come from that you can learn more than one complex thing to the highest expertise.

As a precis, look at Decathlete records compared to those of discipline specific athletes as possibly the most accessable evidence that multi-discipline training will result in lower 'peaks' in skill level. Or for a martial arts reference (and meaning no insult to my bretheren), the swordsmanship of someone who practises only iai will be more polished than someone who does katori - splitting the focus has consequences.

 

[Steve]

It wasn't an unreasonable question in and of itself,Steve and in another context I'd be more than happy to discuss where the fallacy has come from that you can learn more than one complex thing to the highest expertise.

As a precis, look at Decathlete records compared to those of discipline specific athletes as possibly the most accessable evidence that multi-discipline training will result in lower 'peaks' in skill level. Or for a martial arts reference (and meaning no insult to my bretheren), the swordsmanship of someone who practises only iai will be more polished than someone who does katori - splitting the focus has consequences.

In the interest of allowing this thread to sleep peacefully, I think we can save the conversation for a later date. Some things do occur to me on the subject.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, Sukerin laid it down better than I could explain it to you!

In the interest of allowing this thread to sleep peacefully, I think we can save the conversation for a later date. Some things do occur to me on the subject.