Is being a cop self defense

[Steve]

I can think of some areas of a cop's experience which could be relevant to civilian self-defense. For example ...

• experience in spotting whether someone is carrying a weapon, where they are carrying it, and if they are reaching for it
• experience in staying cool in an ambiguous situation that might or might not become violence, experience in spotting when the situation is about to become violent, and experience in emotionally "flipping the switch" quickly when the situation does turn violent
• experience in not developing "tunnel vision" - i.e. focusing on a single adversary when there may be multiple threats
• experience in deploying a weapon under stress

I'm not saying that all cops are actually good at all these skills, but I would think that they have a lot more opportunities to learn these skills from experience than most civilians.

I have said several times that there is surely a lot of overlap. Everything you're identifying is true (although some of it is less helpful to the average joe than others). And everything that tgace has identified is also true. There is surely a lot that an experienced, competent LEO can teach a person about self defense. But when it gets down to brass tacks, a lot of what translates outside of the police realm are more theoretical soft skill... strategy and tactics. And even then, what translates is a small subset of what a cop does.

Once again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm interested in acknowledging those areas where being a cop does NOT intersect with civilian self defense, and ALSO to acknowledge those areas where training and competing in combat sports (specifically MMA) DOES intersect with civilian self defense.

 

[drop bear]

I have said several times that there is surely a lot of overlap. Everything you're identifying is true (although some of it is less helpful to the average joe than others). And everything that tgace has identified is also true. There is surely a lot that an experienced, competent LEO can teach a person about self defense. But when it gets down to brass tacks, a lot of what translates outside of the police realm are more theoretical soft skill... strategy and tactics. And even then, what translates is a small subset of what a cop does.

Once again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm interested in acknowledging those areas where being a cop does NOT intersect with civilian self defense, and ALSO to acknowledge those areas where training and competing in combat sports (specifically MMA) DOES intersect with civilian self defense.

By the way from my experience police tend to have terrible deescalation skills. My belief is because they can tazer people.

 

[Phobius]

Police where I live do not have the ability to tazer people. Even using any weapon or tool could lead to a hearing in order to prove there was proper cause.

Do I believe the police where I live have good deescalation skills? Yes, even seen it myself. Not all cops but a lot of situations I have witnessed at least. Perhaps they do because deescalation is their goal and they had to have gained quite a bit experience in it.

A police is not different to any other, it is just that they are in a scenario where they can train and improve in what they do, and to many what they do is handle harmful and violent situations in order to live another day as well as making the world around them a bit safer.

 

[Steve]

Police where I live do not have the ability to tazer people. Even using any weapon or tool could lead to a hearing in order to prove there was proper cause.

Do I believe the police where I live have good deescalation skills? Yes, even seen it myself. Not all cops but a lot of situations I have witnessed at least. Perhaps they do because deescalation is their goal and they had to have gained quite a bit experience in it.

A police is not different to any other, it is just that they are in a scenario where they can train and improve in what they do, and to many what they do is handle harmful and violent situations in order to live another day as well as making the world around them a bit safer.

I appreciate the note. You and Drop Bear together illustrate the crux of it perfectly! Just like fighting in a cage can foster some bad habits, just having access to many of the tools that a police officer has can create some very bad habits.

I mentioned earlier that a physical altercation as a cop armed with a pistol, a Taser, hand cuffs, a radio and whatever else, is going to look nothing like a physical altercation with the average citizen (who is not named Bruce Wayne or Phoenix Jones).

Cops where you are may have very well developed de-escalation technique, and it sounds like you both intuitively agree that it's because they have to.

 

[Tgace]

When you are getting punched in the face and back up is still 5 minutes away it all starts to look the same....

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[Brian R. VanCise]

One of the biggest advantages that law enforcement personal and anyone who works in and around that field have is that they understand the law. They understand typically what they can and cannot do both during work and as a civilian. This is a significant advantage over your every day citizen who may or may not have a wrong or right interpretation of what they can do to protect themselves. That and as a violence manager they understand "violence dynamics" in real world confrontations at a much higher level then anyone involved in combat sports or plain just civilian life. Typically they have a clearer understanding of threat indicators that occur before violence. Plus they are usually trained very well at observing which means they will be more aware then your average citizen. They also have solid practice in de-escalation techniques because they use them all the time. They also understand legal ramifications surrounding violence and what can happen after a moment of personal protection occurs.

There are a lot more reasons why LEO's and people who work in the field such as corrections, loss prevention, bouncers, etc. all have a better understanding of self-defense than your average citizen but these are the ones I came up off the top of my head!

Now, all of the above does not mean that your average citizen who trains for personal protection and actively seeks to understand the law and what they can and cannot do in a moment of violence will not be a better trained at personal protection or a better trainer. Each person is unique after all and there are many ways to become good at understanding self-defense and violence dynamics. A combat sport athlete who learns the law and has a solid understanding of what a citizen can and cannot do in a moment of violence. Who also learns fundamental weapons skills like blunt, edged and firearms can be excellent in a stressful moment of violence and even a very good teacher. All depends on how serious one takes learning! They may be just fine even with just their combat sports training depending on the circumstances of their violent confrontation. One only needs to look at the news to realize there are a lot of varying situations that make up violent situations that happen regularly!

 

[Tgace]

I've sort of lost the original point of this thread....

It seems to me that the argument is/was "a guy getting beat/mugged for his wallet" is self defense. But a cop in this situation:

Wouldn't be in a self defense situation.

Of course, its possible the mugging victim could be a CCW with pepper spray and a knife on him/herself.

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[Steve]

When you are getting punched in the face and back up is still 5 minutes away it all starts to look the same....

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The same as getting punched in the face and the bell is five minutes away?

 

[Steve]

I've sort of lost the original point of this thread....

It seems to me that the argument is/was "a guy getting beat/mugged for his wallet" is self defense. But a cop in this situation:

Wouldn't be in a self defense situation.

Of course, its possible the mugging victim could be a CCW with pepper spray and a knife on him/herself.

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I've restated and tried to clarify the point like four or five times now.

 

[Tgace]

The same as getting punched in the face and the bell is five minutes away?

There is no bell....and he may have intentional murder in mind. That's what makes it "self defense".

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[Gerry Seymour]

The same as getting punched in the face and the bell is five minutes away?

No, because the cop's attacker won't stop just because some guy in a striped shirt tells him to.

 

[Tgace]

Well. The title is "Is being a cop self defense". IMO self defense is not an issue of "being" anything.

Self defense is...defending oneself. It's a situation.

I would say that when it comes to physical combat, "self defense" is a situation where anyone is fighting to resist, survive or escape the illegal use of violence being applied against them.


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[Gerry Seymour]

Well. The title is "Is being a cop self defense". IMO self defense is not an issue of "being" anything.

Self defense is...defending oneself. It's a situation.

I would say that when it comes to physical combat, "self defense" is a situation where anyone fighting to resist, survive or escape the illegal use of violence being applied against them.


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Agreed. I've been thinking about that title during recent readings here. If I literally answer the title, then no. Being a cop is not self-defense - it's a job that puts the person in the line of fire for attackers, which would be counter to self-defense. I think several of us, on the other hand, are asking what we felt was being asked: Is what a cop does on his job self-defense? The answer to that, part of the time, is yes, because sometimes cops have to defend themselves against attacks.

 

[drop bear]

When you are getting punched in the face and back up is still 5 minutes away it all starts to look the same....

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Yeah but so does every other face punching.

 

[drop bear]

No, because the cop's attacker won't stop just because some guy in a striped shirt tells him to.

We are no longer factoring risk. Apparently it is not a thing.

 

[Tgace]

If we can't agree that getting your *** kicked by a guy in a ring with a ref has a significant difference from being attacked by some stranger with unknown intent on the street... than I don't know how this conversation can continue.

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[drop bear]

If we can't agree that getting your *** kicked by a guy in a ring with a ref has a significant difference from being attacked by some stranger with unknown intent on the street... than I don't know how this conversation can continue.

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Well yeah. They are generally much easier to beat on the street.

 

[Phobius]

Well yeah. They are generally much easier to beat on the street.

And much more dangerous, can you agree on the fact that it is a lot more dangerous to beat someone on the street?

 

[drop bear]

And much more dangerous, can you agree on the fact that it is a lot more dangerous to beat someone on the street?

It is more dangerous to loose to someone on the street.

Tuna fishing is more dangerous again.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is more dangerous to loose to someone on the street.

Tuna fishing is more dangerous again.

Are you being purposefully obstinate, to kill discussion in this thread?