Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[michaeledward]

I finally watched that video, and it was pretty horrific. .... It just doesn't seem "real." .... Something is definatily wrong, here.

Has the media picked up on this yet (I mean, credable news sources)?

Thank you for pointing this out. I did not watch the video. Nor do I want to. I did see some still captures, and that is more than enough to satisfy any rubber-necking impulse I might have.

I just did a quick search for comments about blood, and found none. But I will be watching for them now.

Mike

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, here's what I learned from the last two pages:

1. Whatever abuses the American army commits, however much these are attached to systemic doctrines, despite the extent to which these trickle down from an Administration (incidentally, T'punk, I wrote that I believed in the country, not the Administration, though it is interesting that you confuse the two) that has been spouting some pretty ugly ideas about, "crusades," for all the bombast broadcast by the likes of Michael Savage, for all the way that that clown's ideas get repeated on this thread, it is Not Our Fault.

2. In our democracy, citizens have no moral responsibility whatsoever for the things done in their name far away from home, by a "volunteer," Army consisting largely of the sons and daughters of military families, working class kids, and minorities, whose bravery and decency is being pissed away in a stupid war pushed by a gang of ignorant yahoos in the White House and State Department who were too lazy and intolerant to bother wading through the ridiculousness of the UN and getting international support. (OMG! I just, like, rilly said something negative about the UN!! I, like, rilly rilly hope Lenin doesn't find out!!!)

3. Martial artists have no need anymore to learn the restraint, nor the morality, that have always been a part of martial arts. Nor should they consider applying the teachings of martial arts training to anything other than beating people up when necessary.

4. Anybody who questions premises 1-3 should be subject to a barrage of direct personal attacks on their character, sobriety, decency, patriotism and faith, because there is no other way to discuss issues than to attack people. And anybody who complains about this said it first about me anyway, even if I can't find the place where they insulted me, because that's what I'd do if I were them.

5. We should hold our opinions without stopping for facts, citable sources, details from history, books or anything else, because who needs any of that liberal crap when it's time to just kick ***? And, anybody who asks for those thinks is probably a pinko anyway.

6. We should not let our opinions be sullied by the likes of pinkos like John McCain, because what does he know about what soldiers have to endure anyway? If his name is brought up, let's just pretend it wasn't--we'd a lot rather sing along with a group of politicians who have never been in combat and seem to have dodged. (Memo: anybody ever wonder why it is that a long list of Americans who fought bravely in real wars--Kerry, McCain, Bob Kerrey, all the way back to George McGovern--tend to oppose these little adventures?) But at the same time, we should despise Democratic politicians who know nothing of what war is about. (Memo: indeed we should, given the likes of Robert MacNamara and Lyndon Johnson, but hey, some dear readers, please do overlook that I've just written something pretty nasty about Democrats.)

7. Oddly, I agree with MJS: run the elections, declare victory, and get the hell out. Or to echo a Vietname-era politican who was asked, "But how can we possibly leave Vietnam?" and replied, "Boats."

 

[Makalakumu]

No, your type is the type who likes to pontificate and play loose with the facts. You turn "allegations" into facts to support your arguments and your type cites biased sources like NPR, etc. The type who likes to ramble off on tangents, then when confronted with the real facts your type then resorts to name calling, condenscention,and blustering... But I'm on to you now....best wishes.

Oh yeah, so that type must include Donald Rumsfeld in front of the senate hearing and George Bush jr at any press conference. Nice stereotype.

NPR biased?

Sounds like the politics of conquest rather then compromise.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Not to be grim, but in Anatomy, at the end of the term, we had to disassemble the cadavers for shipment back to the broker for cremation and ash return to the families. The spine is so thick with multiple layers of connective tissues...not to mention that there is no single plane line that a knife could pass through to severe the spine without coming to a stop on bone...that beheading a guy with a knife alone is much easier said then done. We had to use HACK SAWS to get through the cartilaginous tissues and bony facets of the spine to get the pieces small enough to fit in the containers provided. haven't watched the film; won;t watch the film. But even when OJ tried to take off Nicoles head, all he got through were the soft tissues. Observers were forced to use the phrase "almost took her head off".

After cadaver duty, I really got that.

D.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/27-05092004-297165.html

Interesting article...

General Miller was put back in charge after the story broke and the scandal hit the press. Interesting.

 

[Makalakumu]

How I would handle this situation is to get the hell out of Iraq. As soon as possible (by the way, on 1/27/04 I voted for Dennis Kucinich because this is also his position).

There are to many powerful business interests behind the war in Iraq for this to happen. Beyond all of the speculation and conspiracy, if you go back to what people in the Bush Administration have actually said, Iraq is about stabilizing the middle east for business interests.

 

[Makalakumu]

I finally watched that video, and it was pretty horrific. My adrenaline was up during when they were reading in arabic. Then, they moved to cut his head off....and there was very little blood.

So, I was like, wait a second? If you know anything about the effects of the blade on the human body, you know that if you sever a jugular, blood spays everywhere at about 120 pounds of pressure. This was not the case at all with this video.

So...puzzled more then horrified at this point, I watched it again. I noticed the times are all differen't. The clock changes from real time to military time, and it appears to span over 11 or so hours, jumping back and forth. The head they hold up looks pale, like he was already dead, not just had been killed. His movements while he is kneeling, and even when the terrorists throw him down, upon scrutiny, are not very natural. It's almost like he was already dead or something. Add that with the grainyness of the video, and the fact that the audio isn't in sync with the video, and the details of this thing....I don't know, it ain't right though.

I am not saying that Berg wasn't killed, or that this is some big consperacy or something. I am just saying that it ain't right. This looks like a cut and paste, hack editing job. I am not in denial over the horrific act, as I can stomach these things well. It just doesn't seem "real."

Something is definatily wrong, here. I just got in from a meeting, saw it, and posted here...haven't had time to check the news. Has the media picked up on this yet (I mean, credable news sources)?

There have been rumblings of a conspiracy theory. Check the Net. NPR talked about the conspiracy a little and said that it was untrue. There was no evidence to back up that claim. As usual. I'm glad you saw the same things...feeling a little paranoid.

Two thing are for sure. Mr. Berg is dead and this whole situation is horrible.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Well, here's what I learned from the last two pages:

1. Whatever abuses the American army commits, however much these are attached to systemic doctrines, despite the extent to which these trickle down from an Administration (incidentally, T'punk, I wrote that I believed in the country, not the Administration, though it is interesting that you confuse the two) that has been spouting some pretty ugly ideas about, "crusades," for all the bombast broadcast by the likes of Michael Savage, for all the way that that clown's ideas get repeated on this thread, it is Not Our Fault.

2. In our democracy, citizens have no moral responsibility whatsoever for the things done in their name far away from home, by a "volunteer," Army consisting largely of the sons and daughters of military families, working class kids, and minorities, whose bravery and decency is being pissed away in a stupid war pushed by a gang of ignorant yahoos in the White House and State Department who were too lazy and intolerant to bother wading through the ridiculousness of the UN and getting international support. (OMG! I just, like, rilly said something negative about the UN!! I, like, rilly rilly hope Lenin doesn't find out!!!)

3. Martial artists have no need anymore to learn the restraint, nor the morality, that have always been a part of martial arts. Nor should they consider applying the teachings of martial arts training to anything other than beating people up when necessary.

4. Anybody who questions premises 1-3 should be subject to a barrage of direct personal attacks on their character, sobriety, decency, patriotism and faith, because there is no other way to discuss issues than to attack people. And anybody who complains about this said it first about me anyway, even if I can't find the place where they insulted me, because that's what I'd do if I were them.

5. We should hold our opinions without stopping for facts, citable sources, details from history, books or anything else, because who needs any of that liberal crap when it's time to just kick ***? And, anybody who asks for those thinks is probably a pinko anyway.

6. We should not let our opinions be sullied by the likes of pinkos like John McCain, because what does he know about what soldiers have to endure anyway? If his name is brought up, let's just pretend it wasn't--we'd a lot rather sing along with a group of politicians who have never been in combat and seem to have dodged. (Memo: anybody ever wonder why it is that a long list of Americans who fought bravely in real wars--Kerry, McCain, Bob Kerrey, all the way back to George McGovern--tend to oppose these little adventures?) But at the same time, we should despise Democratic politicians who know nothing of what war is about. (Memo: indeed we should, given the likes of Robert MacNamara and Lyndon Johnson, but hey, some dear readers, please do overlook that I've just written something pretty nasty about Democrats.)

7. Oddly, I agree with MJS: run the elections, declare victory, and get the hell out. Or to echo a Vietname-era politican who was asked, "But how can we possibly leave Vietnam?" and replied, "Boats."

Included the quote, because I thought some of this warranted a second look, and should be seen again.

 

[Tgace]

As distasteful as it is...On the beheading thing.I saw some film of a Russian POW being beheaded with a knife by Chechinan (SP?) soldiers. They stuck it into the side of the neck and cut forward, there was a lot of blood, but it pooled underneath instead of sprayed. Seen throat cuts and much of the blood poured instead of sprayed. Much comes out of the mouth and nose. I would think that unless there is a clean severing a la Katana the dramatic spray may not always happen. The time stamps is a whole different story....whats the conspiracy theory to go with that?

 

[Ender]

ABC NEWS Investigation Timeline
Who Knew About Alleged Iraqi Prisoner Abuse? When?



The release of graphic photographs depicting the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, a U.S.-controlled detention center outside Baghdad, has sparked an international firestorm of controversy. The scandal is also raising questions about which high-ranking members of the U.S. military knew of the allegations and when they were informed.
The following is a timeline of events regarding the investigations of the abuse allegations:

Aug. 31 - Sept. 9, 2003: Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller leads a team to Iraq to review the military's ability to rapidly exploit Iraqi prisoners for actionable intelligence, focusing on three areas: intelligence integration, interrogation operations, and detention operations. — Taguba Report

Sept. 6, 2003: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld tours Abu Ghraib prison and meets with Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski.

Oct. 13 - Nov. 6, 2003: Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder leads an assessment team to Iraq to make specific recommendations concerning detention and interrogation operations. He finds that there are potential human rights abuses, training, and manpower issues system-wide that needed immediate attention. — Taguba Report

October - December 2003: A number of "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses [are] inflicted on several detainees" in Tier 1-A of the Abu Ghraib prison. "Almost every witness testified that the serious criminal abuse of detainees at Abu Ghraib occurred in late October to early November 2003." — Taguba Report

Nov. 4, 2003: Iraqi prisoner Manadel Al-Jamadi is killed in detention, while under interrogation by CIA employee.

Nov. 18, 2003: Department of Defense Principal Deputy General Counsel Daniel Dell'Orto writes to Sen. Patrick Leahy to confirm that earlier Department of Defense statements about the treatment of detainees bind the entire Executive Branch. He sidesteps specific questions about interrogation guidelines, adding that articles alleging improper treatment of detainees "often contain allegations that are untrue." — Human Rights Watch Timeline of Abuse Allegations and Responses

Nov. 26, 2003: Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush, a former Iraqi air defense commander, dies while under interrogation. U.S. military says he died of "natural causes."

NOTE: ABCNEWS has since learned that the CIA inspector general is investigating the deaths of three men during CIA interrogation — two in Iraq and one in Afghanistan.

Jan. 6, 2004: The U.S. Army discharges three reservists and ordered them to forfeit two months' salary for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq." — Associated Press, Jan. 6, 2004

Jan. 13, 2004: A soldier of the 800th Military Police Brigade at Abu Ghraib reports allegations through chain of command.

Jan. 14, 2004: Combined Joint Task Force-7 criminal investigation is initiated

Jan. 16, 2004: U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt holds briefing on criminal investigation. CENTCOM issues press release to publicly acknowledge the investigation.

Jan. 17, 2004: Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, commander of 800th Military Police Brigade, is formally admonished and suspended from her duties in writing by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez regarding the "serious deficiencies in her Brigade." [Taguba Report, pg. 44]. Sanchez called the recent detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib the most recent example of poor leadership that "permeates the Brigade." — Taguba Report

Jan. 19, 2004: Sanchez requests senior level investigation of procedures at the prison.

Jan. 24, 2004: Gen. John Abizaid directs the Coalition Forces Land Component Command to conduct the investigation requested by Sanchez.

Jan. 30, 2004: Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba is appointed to conduct an investigation in Iraq concerning allegations of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib, as ordered by CENTCOM at the request of Gen. Richard Sanchez — Taguba Report

Early February: The Army inspector general begins an investigation of "what we were doing throughout the AOR [area of responsibility]," not including Abu Ghraib, but including Kandahar, Bagram, and other facilities in Iraq.

Early February: In the midst of three investigations, the chief of the Army Reserves decides to conduct an internal review and assessment of how reservists are prepared for these missions.

Feb. 10, 2004: Human Rights Watch writes to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, expressing concern about the treatment of detainees in Iraq and urges the administration to publicly clarify the status of the detainees and to make public the numbers of detainees being held. — Human Rights Watch

Feb. 23, 2004: U.S. forces investigation of mistreatment of Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib prison results in the suspension of 17 soldiers, including a battalion commander and a company commander, pending the outcome of an investigation into allegations of abuse of detainees. — Reuters news service

Feb. 23, 2004: CNN learns an investigation of Abu Ghraib prison abuse is under way. Reporter Barbara Starr is traveling with Rumsfeld and learns that criminal charges against U.S. personnel could come within the following two weeks. "The reports included the possibility that there are pictures showing prisoners being abused or held up to ridicule, and it was Gen. Sanchez several weeks ago that ordered an immediate investigation." — CNN reporter Barbara Starr

March 3, 2004: Maj. Gen. Taguba finishes his preliminary assessment and presents it to Gen. David McKiernan.


March 15, 2004: Army Criminal Investigation Division issues a preliminary assessment regarding its criminal investigation.

March 20, 2004: Charges are preferred against six U.S. military personnel. Gen. Kimmit briefs on the matter in Baghdad, as some have already had their Article 32 hearings.

April 6, 2004: Gen. McKiernan approves the findings of the Taguba Report, which leads to at least six letters of reprimand and two soldiers being released for cause (reassigned to other jobs). All of the soldiers are from the 800th MP Unit.

April 9, 2004: Article 32 proceedings are held for Staff Sgt. Ivan L. Frederick. The abuses become public at this hearing due to the outrage of Spc. Joseph M. Darby, an MP. He received a CD of photos from Cpl. Charles A. Graner, one of the accused, and Darby then submitted the photos along with a sworn statement to the Army's Criminal Investigation Division. — New Yorker, May 10, 2004

April 23, 2004: Gen. George Fay, deputy chief of staff for Army intelligence, initiates an investigation of military intelligence gathering practices inside Iraq. Fay is on the ground in Iraq.

April 28, 2004: CBS' 60 Minutes II airs segment showing pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib prison.

April 28, 2004: Sen.Tom Daschle says he and other congressional leaders met with Rumsfeld and other Pentagon leadership on this date, but they were not told about the abuses.

Around April 30, 2004: Seymour Hersh writes a New Yorker article detailing abuses at Abu Ghraib. The names of the accused are mentioned: Staff Sgt.Ivan L. Frederick, Spc. Charles A. Graner, Sgt. Javal Davis, Spc. Megan Ambuhl, and Spc. Sabrina Harman.

May 3, 2004: Pentagon announces that six soldiers in supervisory positions have received letters of reprimand and a milder letter of admonishment to a seventh. Six in subordinate positions have already been charged. — The New York Times, May 3, 2004

May 4, 2004: Gen. George Casey states that, since December 2002, there have been 35 Army criminal investigations into the treatment of detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan. 25 involve deaths. Two were classified as homicides. Casey said he has no idea how many soldiers may ultimately be involved in abuse at Abu Ghraib. — Martha Raddatz report on ABCNEWS World News Tonight

May 5, 2004: The Senate Intelligence Committee hears from CIA officials and the head of Army Intelligence in closed session. No names are provided. — Luis Martinez, Senate Today

May 7, 2004: Testifying in front of a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on Capitol Hill, Rumsfeld offers his deepest apologies to Iraqi victims of prisoner abuse, saying the culprits should be punished. He says he will not quit to respond to political pressure.

Compiled by ABCNEWS' Brinda Adhikari, with additional reporting by Brian Hartman.



hmmm...so far we lack evidence of a "systemic" problem. We do see some allegations, but nothing as far as evidence, yet....we see the military began the investigation before any outside humanitarian organizations "break the story". We see discharges, reprimands and proceedings for court martial. We see action being taken to correct the problems...these are the facts, without pontifcation and with some "credible" sources.

 

[Cruentus]

As distasteful as it is...On the beheading thing.I saw some film of a Russian POW being beheaded with a knife by Chechinan (SP?) soldiers. They stuck it into the side of the neck and cut forward, there was a lot of blood, but it pooled underneath instead of sprayed. Seen throat cuts and much of the blood poured instead of sprayed. Much comes out of the mouth and nose. I would think that unless there is a clean severing a la Katana the dramatic spray may not always happen. The time stamps is a whole different story....whats the conspiracy theory to go with that?

Right, but it would still gush like someone turned on a hose. In the video, it didn't. There wasn't even any blood on the face when they held the head up.

I don't perscribe to conspericy theories, I just try to look at the evidence in front of me. This just seems to look like a cut and paste editing job. If I had to make an assumption, I'd say Berg was dead before being put on the video, and the times were different because they spliced different footage together.

 

[michaeledward]

hmmm...so far we lack evidence of a "systemic" problem. We do see some allegations, but nothing as far as evidence, yet....we see the military began the investigation before any outside humanitarian organizations "break the story". We see discharges, reprimands and proceedings for court martial. We see action being taken to correct the problems...these are the facts, without pontifcation and with some "credible" sources.

If you look at the reports from the International Committee of the Red Cross, it clearly states that they perform their operations quietly. They do not release information. They do not 'Break the Story'. If the Red Cross took any of those actions, they would not be able to meet with detainees held throughout the world.

In fact, the ICRC is a bit bothered by the fact that their report has been made public. I'm quite sure I posted the link to the ICRC's website, and the press conference of 5/8/04 which made these statements.

But then, the International Committee of the Red Cross is not a credible source, is it?

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5YRMYC?OpenDocument

 

[Makalakumu]

Compiled by ABCNEWS' Brinda Adhikari, with additional reporting by Brian Hartman.



hmmm...so far we lack evidence of a "systemic" problem. We do see some allegations, but nothing as far as evidence, yet....we see the military began the investigation before any outside humanitarian organizations "break the story". We see discharges, reprimands and proceedings for court martial. We see action being taken to correct the problems...these are the facts, without pontifcation and with some "credible" sources.

What is your definition of a "systemic" problem? A few privates? Their commanders? The entire military? The entire US government? How about other agencies in the US government?

 

[Cryozombie]

Well, here's what I learned from the last two pages:

1. Whatever abuses the American army commits, however much these are attached to systemic doctrines, despite the extent to which these trickle down from an Administration (incidentally, T'punk, I wrote that I believed in the country, not the Administration, though it is interesting that you confuse the two)

You're right. My bad. From all the politcial statements and name use you had I made the assumption you used them as the same thing, I misunderstood. I'm sorry.

2. In our democracy, citizens have no moral responsibility whatsoever for the things done in their name far away from home, by a "volunteer," Army consisting largely of the sons and daughters of military families, working class kids, and minorities, whose bravery and decency is being pissed away in a stupid war pushed by a gang of ignorant yahoos in the White House and State Department who were too lazy and intolerant to bother wading through the ridiculousness of the UN and getting international support. (OMG! I just, like, rilly said something negative about the UN!! I, like, rilly rilly hope Lenin doesn't find out!!!)

But, Robert, again I have to point out that most of us are willing to see something DONE about it... most everyone here has said that their actions went too far! But to blame "Americans" and call us "Evil" is wrong BECAUSE most of us are willing to see somthing Done about it.

3. Martial artists have no need anymore to learn the restraint, nor the morality, that have always been a part of martial arts. Nor should they consider applying the teachings of martial arts training to anything other than beating people up when necessary.

Sir, you misread me... I said some schools teach that way, I in no way menat to imply all schools teach that way.

4. Anybody who questions premises 1-3 should be subject to a barrage of direct personal attacks on their character, sobriety, decency, patriotism and faith, because there is no other way to discuss issues than to attack people. And anybody who complains about this said it first about me anyway, even if I can't find the place where they insulted me, because that's what I'd do if I were them.

5. We should hold our opinions without stopping for facts, citable sources, details from history, books or anything else, because who needs any of that liberal crap when it's time to just kick ***? And, anybody who asks for those thinks is probably a pinko anyway.

6. We should not let our opinions be sullied by the likes of pinkos like John McCain, because what does he know about what soldiers have to endure anyway? If his name is brought up, let's just pretend it wasn't--we'd a lot rather sing along with a group of politicians who have never been in combat and seem to have dodged. (Memo: anybody ever wonder why it is that a long list of Americans who fought bravely in real wars--Kerry, McCain, Bob Kerrey, all the way back to George McGovern--tend to oppose these little adventures?) But at the same time, we should despise Democratic politicians who know nothing of what war is about. (Memo: indeed we should, given the likes of Robert MacNamara and Lyndon Johnson, but hey, some dear readers, please do overlook that I've just written something pretty nasty about Democrats.)

7. Oddly, I agree with MJS: run the elections, declare victory, and get the hell out. Or to echo a Vietname-era politican who was asked, "But how can we possibly leave Vietnam?" and replied, "Boats."

Robert...

I will concede that you actually made some good points here... but answer me this...

Why does everything have to be "Black" or "White" with no shades of grey in between?

Why can't a person be FOR some of the things our govenment is doing, but against others?

Why can't one martial arts school teach "fighting" plain and simple, without any philosophy, and another teach the philosophy and humility?

Why can't good people do bad deeds, and bad people do good ones? How come only bad people do bad things and good people do good ones?

I know you did not SAY that it was all or nothing, but your posts imply it... and i am curous why.

 

[Makalakumu]

Why can't good people do bad deeds, and bad people do good ones? How come only bad people do bad things and good people do good ones? QUOTE]

You bring up an interesting point here. How can these people do this to other people? From the interveiws of their parents, you get the picture that alleged were nothing but your typical "all american boys and girls." I've got a few kids and can't imagine my little ones ever doing anything like this and its not like we (my wife and I) have these mentally deranged genes floating around in our phenotype. Nor are we abusive parents or anything. I am amazed at the brutality that this rose to, though. And from what the admin has to say, this is only the tip of the iceberg?

 

[Ender]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/index.html

20 tons of chemical agents and explosives?
71 different lethal chemicals?
a deadly cloud of a mile in size?
WMD?...no doubt
smuggled from Iraq...very distinct possibilty.

 

[michaeledward]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/index.html

20 tons of chemical agents and explosives?
71 different lethal chemicals?
a deadly cloud of a mile in size?
WMD?...no doubt
smuggled from Iraq...very distinct possibilty.

Why is it that you state that these chemicals were smuggled from Iraq. The news article did not say this. In fact, the news article did not even speculate that as a possibility.

Incidently, members of al Qaeda are bad people, and they should be dealt with exactly as the Jordanian government dealt with this event; as a Law Enforcement issue. They apparently had evidence of a pending crime, and went in to stop that crime.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

Why is it that you state that these chemicals were smuggled from Iraq. The news article did not say this. In fact, the news article did not even speculate that as a possibility.

Maybe it had something to do with this...

No, your type is the type who likes to pontificate and play loose with the facts. You turn "allegations" into facts to support your arguments and your type cites biased sources like NPR, etc. The type who likes to ramble off on tangents, then when confronted with the real facts your type then resorts to name calling, condenscention,and blustering...

Innuendo anyone? Good enough for war I guess... :idunno:

 

[Cryozombie]

You bring up an interesting point here. How can these people do this to other people? From the interveiws of their parents, you get the picture that alleged were nothing but your typical "all american boys and girls." I've got a few kids and can't imagine my little ones ever doing anything like this and its not like we (my wife and I) have these mentally deranged genes floating around in our phenotype. Nor are we abusive parents or anything. I am amazed at the brutality that this rose to, though. And from what the admin has to say, this is only the tip of the iceberg?

But you know what? I bet these WERE good kids, who were exposed to the stories of what was being done to the U.S. forces overthere and were probably a bit horrified, disgusted, and pissed off... and then SOMEONE along their chain of command maybe directly told them, maybe hinted to them... that a little payback was acceptable. Does that make them taking it too far acceptable, no... but It might provide a glimpse and some insight on how a "Good" kid could do somthing so bad...

 

[Touch Of Death]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/26/jordan.terror/index.html

20 tons of chemical agents and explosives?
71 different lethal chemicals?
a deadly cloud of a mile in size?
WMD?...no doubt
smuggled from Iraq...very distinct possibilty.

Reaching, ...reaching.
Sean