In Defense of the McDojo

[Kittan Bachika]

MOD: Would it be possible to slap this on the Defense of the McDojo Thread? I realize it might be more relevant there.

I was at my local news stand when I was flipping through TKD Times which had a cover story about this person. I am referring to the cover on the left side.

It is an interesting story because basically she built herself a huge McDojo with her then husband and then a lot of drama occurred.She was nearly pushed out because a developer wanted to buy the land where the school was located but since she owned 51% she had more leverage and bought out the 49% interest of her husband. I am sure there is more to the story.

I did a search on her and boy some of the reviews concerning her contracts were not pretty.

http://raleigh.citysearch.com/review/6153998

I am not being mean. She probably worked very hard for her success but there are many things I dislike about the McDojo and one of them are contacts.

 

[Drac]

My experience with a McDojo came from a female officer that I worked..She would show up for duty wearing a satin jacket with the name embrodered on the back and various patches signifying that she had reached instructor level..When she told me what she paid for lessons I could not believe it, I didnt pay that much for my first car..

 

[wushuguy]

I'm glad there's McDojo's around. It gives my students something commonly known to measure against (although admittedly not the best measuring stick). Because McDojos are everewhere you look, sometimes even two or three on a given strip mall, and large numbers of practitioners, it gives my students something tangible they can compare themselves to, other than each other. I also encourage them to take a look, and if they like, to make some friends and play with the other kids on the block, McDojo, Dojo King, or "Real Deal". That way they can gain some experience and find out if what they're learning from me is really what they want, and they can rest assured in the direction they're going.

A nice thing one of my students said recently, was that in his 3-4 months with me, he has gained more and become confident in his ability to defend himself compared to his previous 5-6 years of training.

Whether McDojo or real, the nice thing is it gives people who eventually find what they're looking for a good assessment of what they're buying. Some people couldn't tell the difference between a Rolex and a Timex, but to those who have worn both, they'll know how to value each respectively. Which one they choose to use is then their own choice.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Some people couldn't tell the difference between a Rolex and a Timex, but to those who have worn both, they'll know how to value each respectively.

Ah, now there's an analogy I can relate to! As a wristwatch enthusiast, I can tell you that Rolex is not considered the 'best' in terms of quality (Blancpain, IWC, JLC, Vacheron-Constantine, etc, just to name a few). But to the buying public, Rolex is to watches what Rolls-Royce is to cars; best of the best. One could say that if you buy a Rolex thinking you're getting the best, you're being defrauded - not only isn't it the best, but better quality mechanical watches can be had for less money. But on the other hand Rolex is still quite good, and when one has a Rolex, one knows what one has; so does the rest of the world. If I were to go about sporting a genuine IWC chronometer on my wrist (way out of my league), very few people would know the difference between it and a basic wristwatch of unknown brand. Only another watch enthusiast would know.

That being said, there are also a lot of people who buy fake Rolexes because although they want the prestige of wearing a 'real' one, they cannot afford it or simply do not want to spend the money. The watch world's equivalent of a person who buys a belt?

 

[terryl965]

Mc Dojo's are here because lazy people want them, the mom and pops of the world only want to brag about there little Johnny becoming a BB in 18 months and knows it all. This always and will continue to be that way because of the financial gain that come from them. I struggle to keep my doors open month after month only to be told by other so called Master to dumb it down and I can have 200 students in a few months, sorry I will keep my 20-35 and take all the time in the world to make sur emy BB's can be the best they can be and not the belt they can buy.

 

[harlan]

Good reply. Personally, I don't have a problem with a 'widely available, cheap, low-grade, martially-based' physical activity - my personal definition of a 'McDojo'. Martial arts study was never meant for the masses, and depending on the individual they will find the 'best fit' of all the options out there. 'McDojo' doesn't necessarily mean 'bad', and sometimes I think the resentment voiced is more sour grapes than a pragmatic look at martial arts training.

Myself, I like antique clocks (Black Forest esp.), and find that basically - the inside workings are pretty much the same. The interesting part is the science, and how it's all put together, but MOST people are not interested in that. And frankly, I'd hate it if I had to share space and my teacher's time with a group of people just looking for a couple hours of mindless exercise.

Ah, now there's an analogy I can relate to! As a wristwatch enthusiast, I can tell you that Rolex is not considered the 'best' in terms of quality (Blancpain, IWC, JLC, Vacheron-Constantine, etc, just to name a few). But to the buying public, Rolex is to watches what Rolls-Royce is to cars; best of the best. One could say that if you buy a Rolex thinking you're getting the best, you're being defrauded - not only isn't it the best, but better quality mechanical watches can be had for less money. But on the other hand Rolex is still quite good, and when one has a Rolex, one knows what one has; so does the rest of the world. If I were to go about sporting a genuine IWC chronometer on my wrist (way out of my league), very few people would know the difference between it and a basic wristwatch of unknown brand. Only another watch enthusiast would know.

That being said, there are also a lot of people who buy fake Rolexes because although they want the prestige of wearing a 'real' one, they cannot afford it or simply do not want to spend the money. The watch world's equivalent of a person who buys a belt?

 

[Steve]

Ah, now there's an analogy I can relate to! As a wristwatch enthusiast, I can tell you that Rolex is not considered the 'best' in terms of quality (Blancpain, IWC, JLC, Vacheron-Constantine, etc, just to name a few). But to the buying public, Rolex is to watches what Rolls-Royce is to cars; best of the best. One could say that if you buy a Rolex thinking you're getting the best, you're being defrauded - not only isn't it the best, but better quality mechanical watches can be had for less money. But on the other hand Rolex is still quite good, and when one has a Rolex, one knows what one has; so does the rest of the world. If I were to go about sporting a genuine IWC chronometer on my wrist (way out of my league), very few people would know the difference between it and a basic wristwatch of unknown brand. Only another watch enthusiast would know.

you're contradicting yourself. If a consumer purchases a Rolex thinking he is getting the best of the best, he clearly does not know what he's getting. He's being duped. You readily admit that the Rolex ISN'T the best of the best but also readily admit that this is a large part of why people buy them.

Once again, this leads back to a point that you are avoiding, and that's whether the public really knows what they're getting. In the case of a McDojo, some do, of course. But many don't. They are being preyed upon. Or more precisely, their ignorance is being exploited. If you asked the people who train in a mcdojo what they want, do you think that they'd reply (as you've stated multiple times) that they just want crap? I don't think so. Their answers would likely be much the same as yours, mine and everyone else's on here. In other words, they'd train for a variety of reasons, but I'd argue that none of them pick their dojos because they want to be duped.

If you're with me so far, then the question becomes, "Is a business model that relies upon ignorance a sound business model?" Because that's what we're really talking about. And if money is the overriding concern, then yes. It could be. But make no mistake. That's what we're talking about. For a McDojo to thrive, it must prey upon an ignorant customer base, use pressure sales techniques to get people to commit long term, and in almost all cases choose quantity over quality where the two conflict.

People castigate the students in McDojos, presuming that they're lazy or looking for an easy promotion. And yet, so many of us here started out in McDojos. It's not necessarily laziness or a desire for instant gratification as much as it's about a lack of information, a lack of standards, and a focus on exploiting ignorance. The one business practice common to most McDojos is to discourage a person from shopping around. Exclusivity is common. Don't compare my product with others. Don't train at another studio. Don't purchase your dobok or your sparring gear online... buy only what my school sells. Drink my kool aid. Listen to my rationale about why I have the "real" kung fu. This is deceptive at least, and fraudulent at worst and is an almost universal characteristic of the McDojo.

Over and over, you trot out a 99% of everything is crap, but I'm not sure I agree. As a premise, I think you're building your rationale from this idea that people like crap, but I just don't agree. Instant gratification? Sure. Quick fix? Sometimes. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I'm going spend my money on something that doesn't function as designed today."

 

[wushuguy]

Ah, now there's an analogy I can relate to! As a wristwatch enthusiast, I can tell you that Rolex is not considered the 'best' in terms of quality (Blancpain, IWC, JLC, Vacheron-Constantine, etc, just to name a few). But to the buying public, Rolex is to watches what Rolls-Royce is to cars; best of the best.
That being said, there are also a lot of people who buy fake Rolexes because although they want the prestige of wearing a 'real' one, they cannot afford it or simply do not want to spend the money. The watch world's equivalent of a person who buys a belt?

I like Vacheron myself, if I could afford it, lol.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

you're contradicting yourself. If a consumer purchases a Rolex thinking he is getting the best of the best, he clearly does not know what he's getting. He's being duped. You readily admit that the Rolex ISN'T the best of the best but also readily admit that this is a large part of why people buy them.

Once again, this leads back to a point that you are avoiding, and that's whether the public really knows what they're getting. In the case of a McDojo, some do, of course. But many don't. They are being preyed upon. Or more precisely, their ignorance is being exploited. If you asked the people who train in a mcdojo what they want, do you think that they'd reply (as you've stated multiple times) that they just want crap? I don't think so. Their answers would likely be much the same as yours, mine and everyone else's on here. In other words, they'd train for a variety of reasons, but I'd argue that none of them pick their dojos because they want to be duped.

I'm not trying to avoid any points you're making. If what you're saying is correct, then anyone who buys a Rolex, other than a watch aficionado, is being defrauded. I don't accept that as true. They think they're buying the best because that's the common perception. Rolex is not going tell them, "Well, we're not the very best you can buy, but we're still quite good." I don't see Rolex as crooks, nor do I see the McDojo as being crooks for not telling prospective MA students that they're not the best training available.

If you're with me so far, then the question becomes, "Is a business model that relies upon ignorance a sound business model?" Because that's what we're really talking about. And if money is the overriding concern, then yes. It could be. But make no mistake. That's what we're talking about. For a McDojo to thrive, it must prey upon an ignorant customer base, use pressure sales techniques to get people to commit long term, and in almost all cases choose quantity over quality where the two conflict.

Except for the term 'prey upon', I agree. They market to a largely ignorant customer base. It's not their job to educate them. And nobody does, from the people who sell cars to the people who sell vitamins. Nobody says "This is probably not the best, and won't work as well as we claim, but buy it anyway." So I guess everyone is 'preying upon' the gullible public in that sense.

People castigate the students in McDojos, presuming that they're lazy or looking for an easy promotion. And yet, so many of us here started out in McDojos. It's not necessarily laziness or a desire for instant gratification as much as it's about a lack of information, a lack of standards, and a focus on exploiting ignorance. The one business practice common to most McDojos is to discourage a person from shopping around. Exclusivity is common. Don't compare my product with others. Don't train at another studio. Don't purchase your dobok or your sparring gear online... buy only what my school sells. Drink my kool aid. Listen to my rationale about why I have the "real" kung fu. This is deceptive at least, and fraudulent at worst and is an almost universal characteristic of the McDojo.

It's a universal characteristic of nearly everything that is sold. I think you're just focusing your dislike on the McDojo, when in fact they don't do anything different than any other services business out there for the most part.

Over and over, you trot out a 99% of everything is crap, but I'm not sure I agree. As a premise, I think you're building your rationale from this idea that people like crap, but I just don't agree. Instant gratification? Sure. Quick fix? Sometimes. But no one wakes up in the morning and says, "I'm going spend my money on something that doesn't function as designed today."

The people you note who have left the McDojo in search of real training are exemplars of those who didn't want to be sold crap, and left when they realized that's what they were getting. The rest seem to be content to be sold crap. And I'd suggest if you evangelized to them and tried to convince them they're buying crap, they'd largely ignore you. They want what they're buying, and those few who don't, leave and find people like us.

 

[wushuguy]

... They are being preyed upon. Or more precisely, their ignorance is being exploited. ...


... People castigate the students in McDojos, presuming that they're lazy or looking for an easy promotion. And yet, so many of us here started out in McDojos. It's not necessarily laziness or a desire for instant gratification as much as it's about a lack of information, a lack of standards, and a focus on exploiting ignorance. The one business practice common to most McDojos is to discourage a person from shopping around. Exclusivity is common. Don't compare my product with others. Don't train at another studio. Don't purchase your dobok or your sparring gear online... buy only what my school sells. Drink my kool aid. Listen to my rationale about why I have the "real" kung fu. This is deceptive at least, and fraudulent at worst and is an almost universal characteristic of the McDojo.
...

Yeah, most consumers are ill informed, whether going into martial arts, prestigious watches, etc. it's a buyer beware world we live in. But anyway, if they're really interested and also talented, they'll probably look more into what martial arts has as most talented students will "out grow" a mcdojo, that is, unless they drowned in kool aid.

I'm sure that's how many of us who started in mcdojos and moved on got here.

also, even if people know there's better things than what they know, they don't always like to do it, especially if they've been in a mcdojo so long and spent so much time and money... some people just look the other way and keep at it rather than admit they got duped for X years. to make the switch is harder for adults than kids.

 

[Steve]

I'm not trying to avoid any points you're making. If what you're saying is correct, then anyone who buys a Rolex, other than a watch aficionado, is being defrauded. I don't accept that as true. They think they're buying the best because that's the common perception. Rolex is not going tell them, "Well, we're not the very best you can buy, but we're still quite good." I don't see Rolex as crooks, nor do I see the McDojo as being crooks for not telling prospective MA students that they're not the best training available.

The point is not fraud. Just as the point was not good vs evil. It's about whether the business model depends upon a customer base that is ignorant.

The watch metaphor breaks down somewhat because a rolex IS a pretty nice watch. Not the best of the best, but still nice. In contrast, the reason we're talking about McDojos is that they sell belts, promote for money not for merit, etc, etc.

But quality issues are beside the point. Once again, if your business model depends upon a customer base that is ignorant, and because this is a service, remains ignorant, then I think your business model is unsound and unscrupulous.

Except for the term 'prey upon', I agree. They market to a largely ignorant customer base. It's not their job to educate them. And nobody does, from the people who sell cars to the people who sell vitamins. Nobody says "This is probably not the best, and won't work as well as we claim, but buy it anyway." So I guess everyone is 'preying upon' the gullible public in that sense.

Not everyone. There's still a concept of good value out there, and many people make a fine living providing solid value for services or goods rendered.

It's a universal characteristic of nearly everything that is sold. I think you're just focusing your dislike on the McDojo, when in fact they don't do anything different than any other services business out there for the most part.

Once again, you're painting business and sales with a giant brush. Services and sales businesses don't all prey upon ignorance. Some do. The key, though, is that you seem to believe that in sales and service, this is the only business approach that exists. It's just not true. I'm not talking just about martial arts.

There are other equally effective sales tactics, such as providing value or emphasizing features and benefit (ie, "what's in it for you" sales). These don't depend upon an ignorant clientele. Quite the opposite. Businesses that focus on providing good value will often encourage comparison to other similar businesses.

Can't you see the difference?

The people you note who have left the McDojo in search of real training are exemplars of those who didn't want to be sold crap, and left when they realized that's what they were getting. The rest seem to be content to be sold crap. And I'd suggest if you evangelized to them and tried to convince them they're buying crap, they'd largely ignore you. They want what they're buying, and those few who don't, leave and find people like us.

You're speculating here. You've already accepted that a tacit characteristic of a mcdojo business model is ignorance, and keeping people ignorant is a part of that model. There are tactics used in a McDojo designed to do specifically this.

You're taking a absolute "buyer beware" position, but there's a give and take. At some point, business must be held accountable for predatory sales tactics and schemes. Defending these sales tactics only encourages these sales tactics.

 

[Flying Crane]

This may seem anathema to some - those who see martial arts as something pure that is not to be sullied. But others see it differently - even the best 'pure' or 'authentic' dojo cannot stay open without students. A wonderfully-qualified instructor who is difficult to get along with, or mean, or even sadistic, can ruin a dojo, no matter how authentic the instruction is. A fantastic instructor who cannot balance the books, pay the rent, keep the lights turned on, will soon find himself without a place for his or her students to work out, no matter how good their training is. So it seems that business needs are important to any dojo, whether or not it is an 'authentic' dojo. So even a non-McDojo must consider the needs of business, even if they place the emphasis on teaching and not on making money.


Thoughts?

This is where lies the heart of my disagreement. Martial arts and business do not mix well. No martial arts school should be run as a business on which the instructor's livlihood depends. It can be run as a side business with the financial goal of covering expenses, perhaps a small profit on top, but that should really be the end of it. When the business is the bread and butter and livlihood for the instructor, it is guaranteed to become a problem. I do not believe a martial arts school should be run in this way.

 

[harlan]

Agreed.

This is where lies the heart of my disagreement. Martial arts and business do not mix well. No martial arts school should be run as a business on which the instructor's livlihood depends. It can be run as a side business with the financial goal of covering expenses, perhaps a small profit on top, but that should really be the end of it. When the business is the bread and butter and livlihood for the instructor, it is guaranteed to become a problem. I do not believe a martial arts school should be run in this way.

 

[Blade96]

I agree. Our own association isnt a business. One of my senseis is a teacher. The other one is a construction worker. Their life comes from that they dont make their money from Shotokan. we pay a little membership due. But thats not what the senseis live on.

and i agree. mcdojo's know how to make money. But i dont consider them legitimate business. They arr evil to my mind from what i read about them. I've never been to one. I havent been to a puppy mill either. But would you defend them as well and say they were a legitimate business because they know how to make money? Both turn out crap 'products' But they know how to make money and prey on a public that does not know any better. Do you really think people 'want' crap? Do you think a mother wants little Brutus to have a real black belt or one in 18 months that really doesnt mean anything? She'll say the real one obviously. Would she want a nice clean healthy puppy that comes from a reputable breeder, or one that may be healthy, but it came from a puppy mill? I really believe the former. People dont 'want' crap. American would probably say they dont wish to pay more for food. But do people really want crap food? I dont believe so. At university I always used to have a nice healthy grilled chicken salad. But I cant eat them anymore because they raised the price at univ to 10 dollars. I cant afford to pay that for a salad all the time. Nor can most students (who are notorious for living on crap food) They know how to make money. Would you defend those places then? Just cause they 'know' how to make money? No offense, Bill, but I think you make mistake here.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is where lies the heart of my disagreement. Martial arts and business do not mix well. No martial arts school should be run as a business on which the instructor's livlihood depends. It can be run as a side business with the financial goal of covering expenses, perhaps a small profit on top, but that should really be the end of it. When the business is the bread and butter and livlihood for the instructor, it is guaranteed to become a problem. I do not believe a martial arts school should be run in this way.

I want to clarify my position a bit.

It is my opinion that when one's livlihood is on the line, one will make decisions that favor finances over quality and integrity. Running a martial arts school as a business and primary source of income, is guaranteed to bring this up sooner or later.

The instructor may open the school and begin with all the best intentions. He may even be teaching to a high level of quality for a time. But sooner or later he will be faced with a decision that he needs to make in order to prevent the school failing and his income disappearing. Probably this decision, while saving his school in the short term, will mean that he has compromised his standards. And once he makes that decision once, he has stepped onto a slippery slope and it will happen again and again.

Picture this: John opens a school part time, and keeps his day job. He teaches to a high level of quality, and his school grows. Eventually he quits his day job and runs the school full time. He makes a fair income from the business. As his student body grows, he can no longer keep up with all the teaching. He no longer has the close relationship with every student, that he once had because he needs to rely on assistants to run many of the classes. He's already lost control of the quality at this point.

Then, the economy takes a dump and he starts losing students who no longer have the disposable income to pay for karate lessons, which are perceived by most people as a luxury, recreational activity. John begins to realize that his livlihood is in danger. He can't afford to lose any more students, or else he will start missing payments on his expenses. If he misses another mortgage payment, he may lose his home.

Jenny has been a student of John's for a few years. She's a regular in class, but she doesn't train very hard and doesn't really spend much time outside class practicing. She also doesn't have a lot of natural ability with which to make up for her lack of committment to training. But she shows up to class regularly because it's sort of a social thing for her, and she happily pays her dues every month and buys a new gi and sparring gear and school tee-shirts from him once a year or so.

Jenny hasn't been promoted in a while, and she has been seeing a lot of other people get promoted around her. She is getting disgruntled. John realizes he may lose her if she doesn't get another belt, and he can't lose another student right now. Gotta pay the mortgage.

So Jenny gets to test, doesn't do very well, but gets the belt anyway. Gotta keep Jenny from leaving. John just made a decision to compromise his standards, drop the bar to a new low, and gave away a belt.

There is no going back from that. Once that standard has been set, all the other students expect it for themselves. You cannot take the rank away from the student and tell them, "I never should have promoted you yet, you didn't deserve it, so give back the belt." Once it's done, you cannot undo it.

And it's all downhill from there.

keep a day job. Teach on the side, and don't let yourself get into a position where you need to say "yes" to a student when it's not merited. If you are afraid of losing students for financial reasons, you are in a bad situation and you have lost control of quality.

I do not necessarily believe that the instructor is deliberately misleading anyone. I think most of them probably start out with the best of intentions. But I do believe that the reality of running a business and earning an income will eventually force him to make decisions that are good for business and bad for quality.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Actually... eating at McDonalds every day would kill you so you can't "live" off of it. Didn't you see the documentary "Supersize Me"? LOL

Likewise, accepting what is taught in the McDojo as self-defense could have the same result.

They're good for what they are I suppose. Pretty much an after-school activity for kids. They help them to be more coordinated and one advantage is that in sport-krotty every kid gets to play; nobody sits on the bench.

 

[Steve]

This is where lies the heart of my disagreement. Martial arts and business do not mix well. No martial arts school should be run as a business on which the instructor's livlihood depends. It can be run as a side business with the financial goal of covering expenses, perhaps a small profit on top, but that should really be the end of it. When the business is the bread and butter and livlihood for the instructor, it is guaranteed to become a problem. I do not believe a martial arts school should be run in this way.

Good post, FC. Im not sure I'd go quite so far as to suggest that all MA schools function for all intents and purposes as a non-profit, but I agree with the sentiment, absolutely.

Here's the thing. We've seen time and again that capitalism unchecked doesn't work. Can an unscrupulous person make a boatload of money preying upon the ignorant? Absolutely. We see that all the time.

Money, however, is not the only measure of success in business. In fact, often the unfettered pursuit of money in a business venture can undermine the values that built a profitable business in the first place. How many times have we seen companies founded on the principles of value, integrity and quality begin shaving a little off the budget here and using cheaper materials over there until in a few short years they are selling junk and shamelessly cashing in on reputation only.

Look at the PGA. Tiger Woods, it could be argued, is VERY good for the PGA. Prior to his current troubles, when Tiger was in a tournament the viewership went up 93%. More viewers means more advertisers which means $$.

But look longer term. Even prior to this scandal, I've argued that Tiger Woods is bad for the PGA. 20 years ago, the PGA had "stars". The tour was a diverse collection of personalities, all of whom drew fans. Seve Ballesteros, Lee Trevino, Tom Watson, Jack Nicklaus, Tom Kite, Fred Couples... I could go on and on.

Now? Post Tiger? Most people would only be able to name one person on the tour. Tiger Woods. And of the minority left over, most of them could only probably drum up one more name: Phil Mickelson (who's playing poor golf).

Add to this that many of the people who attend tournaments to watch Tiger alienate the long term golf fans, are louder, drunker and baudier than what would have been tolerated 20 years ago, and you've got many of these former fans slowly losing interest.

So, getting to the point (finally, I know): what happens to the PGA if Tiger never fully comes back? Chances are good he will, but what if he doesnt'? And at some point he's going to retire. What then? He's it. He IS the PGA now... without Tiger, the PGA is really screwed. They not only lose the fan base they've accrued through Tiger, but they've also already lost a more consistent fanbase they've cultivated through decades from guys who've watched Byron Nelson and Ben Hogan, through Arnold Palmer and into the 80's and early 90's. The PGA sold out. They cashed in on Tiger, reaping short term reward, but at the expense of what? Longer term, they are looking at becoming as relevant as international Squash or Curling, rather than one of the most viewed and played sports in the world all because they lost sight of what made it so great in the first place, in exchange for $$.

McDojos do the same thing, although the specific tactics are different. It's the pursuit of money uber alles that will almost assuredly kill your business rather than drive your business. Profitability is a business descriptor, not a business driver.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Money, however, is not the only measure of success in business.

With respect, yes, it is. There is no other criteria on which a business can be measured objectively. A business owner may choose to hold other attributes more than money - and that is certainly their choice. But the business is measured only by how much money it earns.

In fact, if it is a consistent money-loser, the IRS can declare that it is a hobby and not a business. Perfectly fine, but no longer a tax-deduction for Schedule C profit and loss or corporate tax filings.

I'm not saying money is all that matters in the world, but it is the only objective measure by which to measure the success of a business. Any other measure is subjective.

 

[Blade96]

With respect, yes, it is. There is no other criteria on which a business can be measured objectively. A business owner may choose to hold other attributes more than money - and that is certainly their choice. But the business is measured only by how much money it earns.

In fact, if it is a consistent money-loser, the IRS can declare that it is a hobby and not a business. Perfectly fine, but no longer a tax-deduction for Schedule C profit and loss or corporate tax filings.

I'm not saying money is all that matters in the world, but it is the only objective measure by which to measure the success of a business. Any other measure is subjective.

I dont believe that. Example. The Toronto Maple leafs are among the top money making business of the NHL. If not the top ones. They make their money by refusing to spend money on good 'products' so to speak, as in coaching and players who might win them a stanley cup. And they have a huge base of fans who spend this money (I have no idea why) But in terms of money they are 'successful'

The Detroit Red Wings are a business as well. They make billions of dollars. But not as much as the Maple leafs. But they spend that money on good players and management, that is why they dont make as much. And they produce. Four sc champion teams since 1997. Setrecords. (one of which is the most consecutive number of playoff appearances, another is the amount of points earned in the most consecutive seasons).

You said money is the only way to measure success. Measured only by how much money it earns. The TML fill their stadium while the DRW are often criticized because they don't. By your logic, the TML are the more successful because they make the most of the NHL. But they dont offer fans much in the way of 'products'

So who really is the more successful? I dont believe a business is more successful simply because it 'makes more money' and knows how to get people to spend money on them.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I dont believe that. Example. The Toronto Maple leafs are among the top money making business of the NHL. If not the top ones. They make their money by refusing to spend money on good 'products' so to speak, as in coaching and players who might win them a stanley cup. And they have a huge base of fans who spend this money (I have no idea why) But in terms of money they are 'successful'

The Detroit Red Wings are a business as well. They make billions of dollars. But not as much as the Maple leafs. But they spend that money on good players and management, that is why they dont make as much. And they produce. Four sc champion teams since 1997. Setrecords. (one of which is the most consecutive number of playoff appearances, another is the amount of points earned in the most consecutive seasons).

You said money is the only way to measure success. Measured only by how much money it earns. The TML fill their stadium while the DRW are often criticized because they don't. By your logic, the TML are the more successful because they make the most of the NHL. But they dont offer fans much in the way of 'products'

So who really is the more successful? I dont believe a business is more successful simply because it 'makes more money' and knows how to get people to spend money on them.

I'm sorry, you're incorrect. You are referring to a subjective evaluation; the kind that fans make. Investors and stockholders and business owners can only measure the success of a business by the money it makes.

The Chicago Cubs are perennial losers. They make a lot of money. As a business, they're successful. What the fans thinks means nada.