AMP-RYU
Black Belt
Yeah this thread is an oldie!
Yeah this thread is an oldie!
thesandman
Orange Belt
Speaking as if a martial arts school shouldn't at least in some ways be treated similar to a business is not only a little naive but pretty self-centered.
To quote myself from another thread:
I have dedicated my life to my art and to it's teaching, I don't think it unreasonable that I make enough to live off of doing it. I don't have a "day job". I train and I teach. That's all I do. I provide a service that people value greatly. Why would anyone judge me because I want to be able to pay my rent and car insurance? I'm not asking to live in a mansion and drive a BMW, just for enough to live.
Too many people in the martial arts try to label "profit" like it's some kind of dirty word. Yes, it can get out of hand. Greedy people exist in every industry. Some schools do in fact charge an arm and a leg and can seem like belt factories. The good news is, those places fail more often than not because word spreads. People don't feel like their getting their moneys worth and they move on.
Boggles my mind that people would think that paying $30k/yr for college is fine, but more than $5/class for martial arts is a rip off.
To quote myself from another thread:
I have dedicated my life to my art and to it's teaching, I don't think it unreasonable that I make enough to live off of doing it. I don't have a "day job". I train and I teach. That's all I do. I provide a service that people value greatly. Why would anyone judge me because I want to be able to pay my rent and car insurance? I'm not asking to live in a mansion and drive a BMW, just for enough to live.
Too many people in the martial arts try to label "profit" like it's some kind of dirty word. Yes, it can get out of hand. Greedy people exist in every industry. Some schools do in fact charge an arm and a leg and can seem like belt factories. The good news is, those places fail more often than not because word spreads. People don't feel like their getting their moneys worth and they move on.
Boggles my mind that people would think that paying $30k/yr for college is fine, but more than $5/class for martial arts is a rip off.
BrandonLucas
3rd Black Belt
Profit and greed are 2 totally different things.
I think most of us on this forum that are interested in teaching or who already teach would love to live well off of their instruction. It's my ultimate goal to no longer work a 9-5 job, and to make a living doing what I love to do.
McDojos take shorcuts and make sacrifices at the expense of the student...at which point, the studen ceases to be a "student" and becomes a "customer" or "consumer". Yes, some sacrifices are going to have to be made to keep any business open. But, the sacrifice shouldn't decrease the value of the product provided.
McDojos has become the hot topic on this forum as of late, and one of the things that I've learned is that it seems that the term McDojo has different meanings to different people, but the same basic principal applies: it's all about the dollar at the end of the day.
That is where the difference between a school owner who is trying to make a living off of teaching and a school owner who is trying to increase profit at any and all expenses comes into play.
I do think that in order to be a good business person, certain risks have to be taken, and you have to be shrewd at times. But all of this is covered in sales and marketing courses...which, I suspect, most McDojo owners have never taken. Some of them have, and use that as their strength to get ahead, but I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that most McDojo owners have a plan in mind, but get wrapped up in making more and more money with no education to help them figure out the right way to do it.
thesandman
Orange Belt
I agree BrandonLucas, (funny you should mention formal education, I went to college for a marketing degree) I just think we should be careful about how fast we are to label any one thing as being a part of that problem. Articles in martial arts magazines about ways to improve the profitability of your school are not necessarily a part of this problem.
I see it like this:
Trying to squeeze every dollar out of your students: Bad
Working hard every day to attract new students: Good
I see it like this:
Trying to squeeze every dollar out of your students: Bad
Working hard every day to attract new students: Good
Yes it is. And bring back old threads is cool and good and appreciated when done in a positive manner.
But, let us look at your first word of your inital post on this thread. "You." You were address the initial poster.
Which I then posted the following:
Trying to sell you a clue that the initial posted will not be around to reply to your negative comment of "Just now getting it".
And to add to your slippery slope of trying to play and see who will play with you, you reply back and only quote part of me trying to make it look like I am either attacking you or I am without a clue. When in reality you made the initial comment and I tried to let you know that if you were waiting for a reply from the initial poster it was not going to happen.
So, All I have to say to this, Good Luck posting here.
RevIV
Black Belt
what amazes me is all the school owners who talk like they really want to make a living out of the martial arts but never go to business seminars. I belong to an organization out here in new england World Martial Arts Federation. They run two major tournaments a year and offer many seminars in all arts as well as in business. (not to mention one of the behind the scene guys has a huge martial arts supply store) The point is, I have not missed one of these business seminars and they are run by people who have some of the most successful dojo's in New England and the country. What kills me is the turnout is always small, and the people who need it most are the ones who think they know everything already, or already believe that what they have to offer will not help them. Sure they are McDojo'ish at some levels but I can pick and choose what I want to do. Master Bouchard, who runs a great seminar, hands us thousands of dollars worth of helpful material for almost nothing. ($35. for members for the seminar) He gave us notebooks full of ads, letters to give to parents, teachers, students.. Ideas on marketing and much more. Plus helpful tips on running a good class when you do start to get a lot of students.
Oh yeah, best thing I ever did.... Billing co. I like to teach, not chase checks.
Oh yeah, best thing I ever did.... Billing co. I like to teach, not chase checks.
Well, to comment on MA mags, I refer to them as trade publications. Every trade has one or sometimes several. Work in the music biz? You probably read the occasional issue of guitar world.
For those of us who instruct, be it for profit or on a volunteer basis, martial arts is our trade. These publications exist to support and to service that trade. I read Blackbelt, TKD Times, and Mastermag. I really enjoy them, mainly for the interviews and to a great extent, just to see what's going on in the larger MA community.
Also consider that your students may be reading such publications, so keeping abreast of what is being published can be handy in knowing where some of your students may be coming from.
Regarding the McDojo how-to guides, an aid to a school owner in more effectively operating the business and marketing aspects of his or her school is very helpful. Certainly, some of these things have their dark side, paper mill certifications being the biggest. But does using a particular business model directly affect the training that you as an instructor provide? No. Are there lousy, under qualified or unqualified instructors who will use such a business model to open a lousy school? You betcha. Did lousy schools exist before the "McDojo"? You betcha. Lousy schools with posturing fakes have been around for as long as the martial arts.
One of the uniquely American traits, specifically USA American, is the ability to systemitize anything. The car, the franchise, the online university. Not that these were American inventions necesarilly, but we have a particular talent for it here. Comes from being a young nation that spent its first hundred and fifty years pedal to the metal trying to catch up to and pass industrial Europe, both as an economic world power and as a military world power.
Now that we've gotten where we need to be, such rapid growth and expansion isn't necessary anymore, but that mentality doesn't go away overnight. Nor should it; hard work and a good system benefits everyone. The only caveat is that some people will take advantage of such business systems for the express purpose of making money at others' expense.
So why hate on the McDojo? McDojo owners figured out how to do something (make a profit at MA) and do it well. Perhaps that is one lesson that we should learn. Add a good business model to quality instruction and not only do you run a good business, you provide more students with good quality training. Now in my book, thats a win/win.
Daniel
For those of us who instruct, be it for profit or on a volunteer basis, martial arts is our trade. These publications exist to support and to service that trade. I read Blackbelt, TKD Times, and Mastermag. I really enjoy them, mainly for the interviews and to a great extent, just to see what's going on in the larger MA community.
Also consider that your students may be reading such publications, so keeping abreast of what is being published can be handy in knowing where some of your students may be coming from.
Regarding the McDojo how-to guides, an aid to a school owner in more effectively operating the business and marketing aspects of his or her school is very helpful. Certainly, some of these things have their dark side, paper mill certifications being the biggest. But does using a particular business model directly affect the training that you as an instructor provide? No. Are there lousy, under qualified or unqualified instructors who will use such a business model to open a lousy school? You betcha. Did lousy schools exist before the "McDojo"? You betcha. Lousy schools with posturing fakes have been around for as long as the martial arts.
One of the uniquely American traits, specifically USA American, is the ability to systemitize anything. The car, the franchise, the online university. Not that these were American inventions necesarilly, but we have a particular talent for it here. Comes from being a young nation that spent its first hundred and fifty years pedal to the metal trying to catch up to and pass industrial Europe, both as an economic world power and as a military world power.
Now that we've gotten where we need to be, such rapid growth and expansion isn't necessary anymore, but that mentality doesn't go away overnight. Nor should it; hard work and a good system benefits everyone. The only caveat is that some people will take advantage of such business systems for the express purpose of making money at others' expense.
So why hate on the McDojo? McDojo owners figured out how to do something (make a profit at MA) and do it well. Perhaps that is one lesson that we should learn. Add a good business model to quality instruction and not only do you run a good business, you provide more students with good quality training. Now in my book, thats a win/win.
Daniel
This is an excellent point. I put far more hard work into becoming a good martial arts instructor than the average college professor does to reach his "highly respected" position, so why should it be considered taboo for me to want to make a good living in return for all my art and my teaching can provide.
TomoeTamara
Yellow Belt
ME TOO! The Journal of Asian Martial Arts is on of my favorites.....and one of the only that is full of reputable information. Kinda reminds me of a peer reviewed journal.
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
What?
People here don't like the photos of menacing stances, and grimacing,
and how the 'hero' chops, elbows, kicks, punches, etc... some bad guy/student?
And the 15 ways to stop a strait punch (do we really need 15?)
Honestly, the articles I don't like in the martial arts magazines are the ones on movie stars and karate movies. I just really don't care for Hollywood.
Now and then one of them will have a good nugget of information. It's usually on one of the small contributors (I like Teri Tom personally.)
99 per cent of the rest is all flashy BS. As a result I usually just read them on the magazine rack and put them back.
Deaf
People here don't like the photos of menacing stances, and grimacing,
and how the 'hero' chops, elbows, kicks, punches, etc... some bad guy/student?
And the 15 ways to stop a strait punch (do we really need 15?)
Honestly, the articles I don't like in the martial arts magazines are the ones on movie stars and karate movies. I just really don't care for Hollywood.
Now and then one of them will have a good nugget of information. It's usually on one of the small contributors (I like Teri Tom personally.)
99 per cent of the rest is all flashy BS. As a result I usually just read them on the magazine rack and put them back.
Deaf
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