I'm sorry, but this whole "Anti-Grappling" thing horrifies me

[Phobius]

As I stated earlier, before the 1990s, practitioners in both Judo and Bjj viewed the hold that we now call Half Guard as a position of desperation that no one wanted to end up in. After Roberto Correa, Eddie Bravo, and Lucas Leites, the half guard is now viewed as a viable, and potentially devastating grappling position.

None of us even know how life was in feudal china.

Not saying you are wrong since yes, martial arts evolve. More now than before because today coming in contact with another martial art style is way less fatal meaning you can learn something and take it back with you home. Just saying you can't not know anything for sure.

TMAs evolve as well, all martial arts evolve. None look anything like it did 100+ years ago. Problem is that some want to think that the old style of martial art still exist in untouched shape and that it holds a magical key to kill all on sight if needed.

Does not mean old style martial art was not very effective in ways we can not imagine today, but terms were different. People died and often wore sharp weapons most likely.

In 50 years the techniques that today are so very important will no longer be of much concern, and new techniques that were today considered unused mostly will have evolved into something new and better. Once those techniques exist maybe these techniques will come back and once more evolve into the techniques they are today.

You forget that a technique when no longer practised regularly devolves to its most basic shape, once in that shape people will not focus as much on it and be less prepared for its application. This leads to new techniques evolving in ways that make it easier to bring back basic techniques and once again gain advantage. A circle of life.

Reason being, there are only so many ways a body may move, this will not change until we as humankind changes.

 

[Hanzou]

This statement is not correct. There are traditionalists and McDojos in Wing Chun (dont know about Jow Ga) but while McDojos are a majority by concept alone this does not mean you know anything about Wing Chun and how it develops.

The only fact I need to back me up on this, simple, I do not train the way you say I do. Neither does anyone I know personally.

However yes there are those that think Ip Man's way of teaching is an old tradition, as such that all forms are holy in their existence. My belief is that he wanted to teach his system using the tools he could. The system however is the concept and made understandable through all forms he taught. Once you understand the art concept in truth you perfect it for your own use.

Being very tall myself it was quickly understood that an art is not mirroring the techniques as taught by your teacher but understanding the true intention within those techniques.

Adapting the style to your body type isn't what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is someone coming in and altering the way the entire system works, like Roberto Correa and the half guard, or Eddie Bravo with 10th Planet JJ, or Ricardo De La Riva and the DLR guard. When was the last time that happened with Wing Chun?

 

[LFJ]

Adapting the style to your body type isn't what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is someone coming in and altering the way the entire system works, like Roberto Correa and the half guard, or Eddie Bravo with 10th Planet JJ, or Ricardo De La Riva and the DLR guard. When was the last time that happened with Wing Chun?

Leung Ting with "Wing Tsun".
William Cheung with "Traditional Wing Chun".

 

[Hanzou]

None of us even know how life was in feudal china.

Not saying you are wrong since yes, martial arts evolve. More now than before because today coming in contact with another martial art style is way less fatal meaning you can learn something and take it back with you home. Just saying you can't not know anything for sure.

Actually we do know what life was like in feudal China. There's entire volumes of books and scholarship done in that particular area.

TMAs evolve as well, all martial arts evolve. None look anything like it did 100+ years ago. Problem is that some want to think that the old style of martial art still exist in untouched shape and that it holds a magical key to kill all on sight if needed.

Does not mean old style martial art was not very effective in ways we can not imagine today, but terms were different. People died and often wore sharp weapons most likely.

No one is saying that the old style wasn't effective. The argument is that when you're attempting to apply an old style against a more modern style, you're going to have some problems.

Again, I have no idea if Wing Chun or Jow Ga is effective or not in general terms. However, the techniques shown against grappling were not effective.

In 50 years the techniques that today are so very important will no longer be of much concern, and new techniques that were today considered unused mostly will have evolved into something new and better. Once those techniques exist maybe these techniques will come back and once more evolve into the techniques they are today.

You forget that a technique when no longer practised regularly devolves to its most basic shape, once in that shape people will not focus as much on it and be less prepared for its application. This leads to new techniques evolving in ways that make it easier to bring back basic techniques and once again gain advantage. A circle of life.

Reason being, there are only so many ways a body may move, this will not change until we as humankind changes.

Eh, that's not necessarily true. That well worn adage is brought up quite often to show that there's nothing new under the sun. However, when Bjj emerged on the scene in the 1990s, it took established grapplers a while to become used to the methods used by the system. It's also why you have Judoka who cross-train in Bjj.

 

[Hanzou]

Leung Ting with "Wing Tsun".
William Cheung with "Traditional Wing Chun".

Are those actual system alterations, or lineage squabbles?

 

[Phobius]

Eh, that's not necessarily true. That well worn adage is brought up quite often to show that there's nothing new under the sun. However, when Bjj emerged on the scene in the 1990s, it took established grapplers a while to become used to the methods used by the system. It's also why you have Judoka who cross-train in Bjj.

Are those actual system alterations, or lineage squabbles?

Yip Man version of Wing Chun is a system alteration. His students made alterations of their own, their students made alterations. It is the concepts however that should remain the same in order to remain true to the art in its core. Not sure but think "Traditional Wing Chun" is no longer staying true to the concepts, but could be wrong.

Lets hope traditionalists dont shoot me for saying this.

(I think it is time to end this discussion, it goes nowhere fast and gives nothing of value.)

Hanzou it does not matter what you think, but I start to get a feeling that you are not interested in exploring whether or not you are correct. If that is the case and you want to be correct no matter what then that is fine as well. Just not my intention with being on this forum.

 

[LFJ]

Are those actual system alterations, or lineage squabbles?

Both! The two systems are quite a bit different in many areas, but their founders both claim to have gotten the good stuff from Yip Man behind closed doors.

 

[wckf92]

...their founders both claim to have gotten the good stuff from Yip Man behind closed doors.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And you contradict yourself in your own post. The first article states that Oda created the Triangle Choke in the early 20th century, but then you post another article that says that nothing is invented, just rediscovered.

The point is this; Bjj looks different than it did 100 years ago. Frankly it looks different than it did in the 1950s and 60s when Helio was fighting. Why? Because it has evolved in that time period. Going back to the original point of this line of discussion, that puts it on a different track than styles like Jow Ga or Wing Chun that focus on trying to stay as close to the old ways as possible with their forms and traditions.

How am I contradicting myself when I post information from sources that I don't write? This isn't what I'm saying this is what BJJ guys are saying so if you got beef with that then take it up with them.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou it does not matter what you think, but I start to get a feeling that you are not interested in exploring whether or not you are correct. If that is the case and you want to be correct no matter what then that is fine as well. Just not my intention with being on this forum.

It doesn't matter what I think? Well it's nice to know that you respect the person you're having a discussion with.

I'm correct that Bjj is different than it was 100 years ago. I'm also correct that while people still move the same way, martial art innovators create new things all the time to make their style better overall. Thus, a traditional stylist can't hope to develop coherent strategies against modern martial arts if their style of choice purposely views innovation as something dangerous.

Which is why stuff like Wing Chun or Jow Ga anti-grappling is destined for failure.

How am I contradicting myself when I post information from sources that I don't write? This isn't what I'm saying this is what BJJ guys are saying so if you got beef with that then take it up with them.

Those guys are free to disagree since they're two different people. However, if your argument is that people don't invent stuff in Martial Arts, and that everything is already created and people just "rediscover them", you posted an article that contradicts your argument.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This statement is not correct. There are traditionalists and McDojos in Wing Chun (dont know about Jow Ga) but while McDojos are a majority by concept alone this does not mean you know anything about Wing Chun and how it develops.

Jow Ga keeps tradition but it also evolves. There's no rule that says a martial art can only keep tradition or only be progressive. There are stories in Jow Ga about our founder fighting and losing and developing Jow Ga. We keep tradition as our root and learn how to apply that technique against who we spar against. For example, in my school we video tape all of our sparring against other schools, then we go back and analyze the session and talk about how our technique worked, what were the complications, did we pick the correct technique to defend or attack with, how is the technique in application different from the technique in form, and in practice. We do this so that we don't abandon Jow Ga. Our mentality is not to find something outside of Jow Ga as a solution but to have a better understand our techniques so that we can successfully apply them to a new situation. We keep the old techniques because that's the root and we add "new" applications and understanding to our library. We don't throw stuff away.

Unfortunately many people inside and outside of TMA make the assumption that there can't be variations of a traditional technique that everything has to be performed exactly the same as it is in form and demo. This makes the style very limited and I can't see anyone realistically fighting in such a limited way even back then. Kung Fu Sifus and practitioners that use the technique in real fights and in sparring would have done variations of a root technique as ways to adjust to the attacker.

This isn't a difficult concept to understand, but ego, attitude, and lack of willingness to understand get in the way.

The only fact I need to back me up on this, simple, I do not train the way you say I do. Neither does anyone I know personally.

This doesn't matter to some people because they know better than you even though they don't train in the same school or under the same teacher.

Being very tall myself it was quickly understood that an art is not mirroring the techniques as taught by your teacher but understanding the true intention within those techniques.

When you say that you are tall, the first thing that comes to mind is that you have to adjust the techniques to account for your size and fighting someone much smaller.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Those guys are free to disagree since they're two different people. However, if your argument is that people don't invent stuff in Martial Arts, and that everything is already created and people just "rediscover them", you posted an article that contradicts your argument.

1st: You tell me what my argument is. When I have not said a word about Bjj. Everything that I posted there was quoted from those sources.

Like I said. If you got beef with what is there then go argue with the people who made those statements, Those statements are not my own. I just simply posted information from a bjj source. I could care less about a triangle hold.

that everything is already created and people just "rediscover them", you posted an article that contradicts your argument.

Show me where I made that statement.

My real purpose of me posting those sources was because I knew you would respond with assumptions and misconceptions about me, even when the words aren't mine. So me post for me posting those sources was just my entertainment. If Bjj guy says so then they are free to disagree, but when a non-bjj guy says so then it's a sin.

 

[Hanzou]

1st: You tell me what my argument is. When I have not said a word about Bjj. Everything that I posted there was quoted from those sources.

So do you disagree with the following article that you posted;

Discovery vs. Invention in Jiu Jitsu - The Jiu Jitsu Journey

???

Like I said. If you got beef with what is there then go argue with the people who made those statements, Those statements are not my own. I just simply posted information from a bjj source. I could care less about a triangle hold.

Why would I argue with two people who have two very different opinions? I'm arguing with the person who posted them both up to seemingly support their argument (whatever that may be).

My real purpose of me posting those sources was because I knew you would respond with assumptions and misconceptions about me, even when the words aren't mine. So me post for me posting those sources was just my entertainment. If Bjj guy says so then they are free to disagree, but when a non-bjj guy says so then it's a sin.

Again, the problem is that the two articles contradict each other. One says that nothing in martial arts is invented, while another clearly states that the choke was invented by Oda. Thus, I'm curious why you posted both of those articles up in the first place, and what argument you were trying to make.

 

[JPinAZ]

since none of the recent posts between you 2 really have anything to do with WC at this point and has really turned into hashing personal differences, could you two please take it to PM? (or get a room! lol)

And no, I'm not a mod. Just someone getting tired of sifting thru the pages of personal differences and arguing about non-wc related issues. thanks!

 

[geezer]

Are those actual system alterations, or lineage squabbles?

Both. But there is a subtle but significant difference in the claims of these two self promoting narcissists:

William Cheung took what he got from Grandmaster Yip, used it to invent an altered system, and then claimed it is actually the only true and authentic system and thus is better than everybody else's.

Leung Ting just claims to have understood Yip Man's final perspective best, and to be smarter and more talented than everybody else, so his admittedly altered and trademarked system is better than everybody else's.

In this sense, I'd have to say that my old sifu, LT was actually being more honest. Regardless, neither of these guys was improving the WC system the way you describe what happened in BJJ.

The BJJ evolution you describe, like the evolution of other competitive sports was the result of new techniques being introduced from a variety of sources and being tested by many competitors in competition and practice. I see no evidence of that kind of scientific testing and development in most TMA. This bothers me.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Me doing an anti-grappling technique taught in Jow Ga.

About the video.
1. This was not a demo. This was live sparring
2. This guy was actually trying to take me down
3. The speed at which he comes in is not a factor. If he came in faster the result would have been the same.
4. I did not try to stop him in his tracks but I allowed his energy to flow pass me which assist me in turning him. The more force that he uses to come in the easier it's going to be for me to use his energy to turn him.
5. Instead of him taking me down, I end up taking him down.
6. There are other techniques that come into play but the only one that I'm willing to share is that I was in a Traditional Chinese Martial Arts horse stance when his attack began.

This is a sample of just one grappling/ anti-grappling technique that is taught in my Jow Ga lineage. There is no fancy striking like the video from the Jow Ga Sifu in Australia. Jow Ga is very practical.

I will take this video down sometime today

 

[JowGaWolf]

since none of the recent posts between you 2 really have anything to do with WC at this point and has really turned into hashing personal differences, could you two please take it to PM? (or get a room! lol)

And no, I'm not a mod. Just someone getting tired of sifting thru the pages of personal differences and arguing about non-wc related issues. thanks!

I will stop talking about Jow Ga but some of the same anti-grappling techniques that are in my system are also found in other systems of Kung Fu including Wing Chun. The only problem is that there are very few video examples of this outside of a demo.

 

[Phobius]

It doesn't matter what I think? Well it's nice to know that you respect the person you're having a discussion with.

The accident of editing text in hindsight. Meant to say that it seems you do not focus on discussing your thoughts but just enforcing that you are right. As in it doesnt seem like the subject itself matters to you, but just that you are right in it. Sorry for the rude message the way it came out, just dont know how my brain read that text.



As for JowGaWolf movie, was his intention known to you in advance, as in training takedown? Or are you always trying to keep such a horse stance?

No complaints however. It was a nice follow through.

 

[geezer]

Me doing an anti-grappling technique taught in Jow Ga.


I will take this video down sometime today

I'd like to check out your videos, but every time I try the link is no good. Did you already take this one down? If so, why?

 

[JowGaWolf]

As for JowGaWolf movie, was his intention known to you in advance, as in training takedown? Or are you always trying to keep such a horse stance?

I told someone that I wouldn't talk about my fighting style so I will try to frame my answer in a way that is pretty much universal for any Traditional Chinese Martial Art which would include Wing Chun.

was his intention known to you in advance, as in training takedown? The short answer is no. I've only trained using this technique maybe 2 or 3 times total in the same day. 2 of those times consisted of me getting a feel for what I need to do. The 3 time consisted of me asking my Sifu to apply the technique to me. I needed to understand where he was applying the pressure and how he was turning the opponent. So when he did the technique on me I gained a better understanding of what I should do.

When I fight I heavily rely on a lot of sensing. It's difficult to explain but I know for a fact that Wing Chun has it in some of their exercises that serve the same purpose as Tai Chi Push hands. So if you have practiced any of those then you'll have a better idea of what I mean when I say. "When if feel certain pressures on my arm I can sense where that person is weak, what that person is trying to position themselves to do, and how to address it. I know this may seem like the "fake kung fu stuff" to others but that's what happened in that video.

In that particular video I had no idea that he was going to shoot on me. My first line of defense was to take a stance that would allow me to deal with grappling. Cat stance (which is similar to one of the Wing Chun stances) is no good for grappling. It's good for other things but not for grappling. Here's the secret to stances that I would recommend Traditional Chinese Martial artists to at least give some thought to especially Wing Chun practitioners. This is something that I learned on my own "You can only retreat as far as your rear leg." It doesn't matter what style of fighting a person does this is going to hold true for almost every fighting style no matter the fighting system. Now for Wing Chun practitioners, when you are in your stance see how far you can move backward without first lifting that rear foot. The reason I want you do this is so that you can understand the true distance of your possible retreat when a shoot comes in. Having to lift that rear foot first uses valuable time that could be use to get out of the way. Just give it some thought or even try it out. I'm only suggesting this as a way to understand your current fighting stances. With that said. My first line of defense was my stance.

My second line of defense is the sensing part. This training involves 2 things. The first part is being connected to your opponent and being able to read movement through touch. This is something that Wing Chun does. The 2nd part of sensing is you have to know how it feels when someone shoots on you. For this was the simple part. My Sifu first showed the technique and how it works. Then the students took turns practicing it on each other where one student would simulate the shoot and the other student would become familiar with how to turn. While learning how to turn our body we become aware of how it feels to our arms. So when someone shoots, that similar pressure on arms (sensing) is what triggers the technique. So for me, when shoots feel a certain way on my arm I know what to do based on how it feels.

It wasn't my plan to turn him that way. I wasn't sitting there thinking " if he does this then I'll do this technique." It's more like, "The pressure on my arms feels like this technique so I'll do that technique." In the video I'm actually about to hit him with a hook right before he drops under me. The moment he did that the pressure against my arm made me aware that he was going for the take down.

Or are you always trying to keep such a horse stance?
I move in and out of stances, but if I think someone will try to grapple then I will stick to the more solid horse stance. The height of my stance depends on how tall my opponent is. If I'm not sure about my opponent then I'll take a low horse stance for safety precautions until I can figure if the guy is a grappling threat. Sometimes you can expose a grappler by raising your stance just high enough to look like a good opportunity to for a take down. If they are a grappler then their eyes will light up and you'll feel them focusing on your lower body instead of trying to knock your head off.

Thanks