Anti grappling! (standing up) or threats!
- Thread starter Nabakatsu
- Start date
You've got a good perspective. You know Emin wasn't born a great fighter... well, OK, maybe he was. But still, he worked really hard to build his skills, and he trained with a lot of grapplers. A Turkish wrestler named Reza, for example. I'll have to check on this with my Si-dei at our next workout. He was Emin's roommate for a brief bit back in the early 90s. Blew out his knee training with him. Another lesson there. Don't train with tigers unless you are one!
OP
OP
Nabakatsu
Brown Belt
Thats what I love! I may not quite be a tiger, but I don't like people taking it too light on me either! not that I would ever hold that against someobody.. but yeah.. what a rare treat that must have been, roommate of Emin Boztepe.. I've heard insane stories about him from my sifu, Micheal Casey comes out to train with my sifu and our class once every 4 months or so, I just missed his last visit as I started the week after he came out, but I can't wait to get a chance to learn from him when he comes back out hopefully within a few months! 
DBZ
Orange Belt
I know your pretty much done with this thread but my 2 cents worth is that you must practice with a grappler if you want your style to beat his grappling style(whatever it may be) some people my not agree with me but there is no ultimate MA that beats all others. there is MAists that are better than other MAists. I do not like to go to the groung when sparring but i have a friend that does so i sparr with him to practice not getting taken to the ground.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
To Si-Je, Alan Mohler's BJJ/MMA school is in your area. He is a great guy. I'm not sure how many would want to learn wing chun, but if you guys are looking for quality sparring partners, that might be a way to go.
To the OP, if you're looking for help with stand up and standup threats, train with quality stand up grapplers. Wrestlers, Judoka... even the local Aikido schools. Look for open mat times, be friendly and I'm sure you can find some guys/gals willing to try something a little different.
To the OP, if you're looking for help with stand up and standup threats, train with quality stand up grapplers. Wrestlers, Judoka... even the local Aikido schools. Look for open mat times, be friendly and I'm sure you can find some guys/gals willing to try something a little different.
DBZ
Orange Belt
I agree with stevebjj, A couple fellow students and I at the TKD school I attend get together couple times a month just to practice MMAish style sparring. One is a highschool wrestler the other is an akido student so its a good group and we just share ideas. We all learn alot that way
DBZ
Orange Belt
Im glad im not the only one who did that lol.
P.S. Im also glad im not the only one online at 3 in the morning lol
Hagakure
Blue Belt
100% accurate. Those videos were trained against compliant partners. Anyone thinking otherwise is on something. I CANNOT get my head round why those who think that training another art to round out the weaknesses within Wing Chun think it's cheating, or selling out. If you're training for a ring environment, and if those rules include grappling, and you know nothing about it, you WILL lose if your opponent is half decent. You "may" be able to fend a trained grappler off for a while, but, to be honest, that's where most of your energy will then go. It won't be trying to knock the other guy out, it'll be devoted towards trying to fend the other guy off. Hardly inspirational.
End of the day Nabakatsu, you do what you want, what you feel is best. If you genuinely believe that you can win against all in a total MMA environment in a cage, then go ahead, see if it works. If you get taken to the ground and g 'n' p'd then you'll get your answer. In an enclosed environment where a grappler doesn't have to worry about landing on all the grime of a pub/club floor, or about 3 or 4 of the other guys mates, to not know anything about it, you'll get your answer mate.
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OP
OP
Nabakatsu
Brown Belt
I don't recall saying I intended on doing anything of that nature, there is absolutely no way I will enter into a MMA match without having knowledge of grappling, I do however want to learn the grappling of ebmas and test it against grapplers and see how it goes. I'm not planning on hoping in the cage next month or anything, It will take awhile before I feel confident even using wing tzun, I have yet to test it against a stand up fighter, let alone the ground game I have yet to learn/test. The reason why I want to learn and try out ebmas grappling first is because i'm quite fond of the principals of wing tzun, I feel they can be applied in damn near any situation, if you know how to do it, this certainly includes non combative situations, alas, time will tell.
Hagakure
Blue Belt
I'm not saying you did, only that if you were to go into that environment without all potential training areas covered there's a good chance that that's the position you'd end up in. This post wasn't aimed at you in that sense, more others who think it's acceptable to just train WC in the ring. End of the day, it ain't them stepping into it.
OP
OP
Nabakatsu
Brown Belt
I have no idea how to quote outside of the entire post, so I shall copy and paste:
Hagakure said:
End of the day Nabakatsu, you do what you want, what you feel is best. If you genuinely believe that you can win against all in a total MMA environment in a cage, then go ahead, see if it works. If you get taken to the ground and g 'n' p'd then you'll get your answer.
My post was in response to this, you said do what you want, what I felt was best, and so I informed you of my intentions regarding these matters, the
later part of the paragraph from at least my perspectives seems to suggest that I was thinking along these lines, While I now know now that you were talking to some others by saying this, with my name in the front I thought it best to clear up any potential confusion
I assume you refer to Si-Je when you use the word others, She is actually in the process of training the anti grappling I oh so desire to train, while some of the videos she posted aren't entirely specific to that, they certainly demonstrate ideas and concepts I find valid, certainly something to eventually try out on a person that is not going along willingly, which they of course are, so as to fully demonstrate the technique, I do think that by adding another video of the same technique against someone fully resisting and trained in a reputable grappling art would certainly add authenticity to said techniques, I can understand how that would be difficult, if an art which was designed to to completely nullify my art I don't think I would be doccumenting it any time soon, The mentality of such a person could vary dramatically from, I've let my instructor down and that's why I failed, to anger denial, and embaressment, I mean.. the list goes on and on.. even if they really did find such people, i'm sure there would still be a valid way to counter as to how the grappler could have done better, Training a fair amount seems to be the best way to go about it, which as far as I can tell has be a on-going theme in all of the kind folks who posted here with good intentions hoping to help me on my path. I'd like to thank you ALL again for doing so, and thanks hagakure I know you too have good intentions in regards to me and how I fair, how awesome would it to have a wing tzun mma champion in the ufc?!
Hagakure said:
End of the day Nabakatsu, you do what you want, what you feel is best. If you genuinely believe that you can win against all in a total MMA environment in a cage, then go ahead, see if it works. If you get taken to the ground and g 'n' p'd then you'll get your answer.
My post was in response to this, you said do what you want, what I felt was best, and so I informed you of my intentions regarding these matters, the
later part of the paragraph from at least my perspectives seems to suggest that I was thinking along these lines, While I now know now that you were talking to some others by saying this, with my name in the front I thought it best to clear up any potential confusion
I assume you refer to Si-Je when you use the word others, She is actually in the process of training the anti grappling I oh so desire to train, while some of the videos she posted aren't entirely specific to that, they certainly demonstrate ideas and concepts I find valid, certainly something to eventually try out on a person that is not going along willingly, which they of course are, so as to fully demonstrate the technique, I do think that by adding another video of the same technique against someone fully resisting and trained in a reputable grappling art would certainly add authenticity to said techniques, I can understand how that would be difficult, if an art which was designed to to completely nullify my art I don't think I would be doccumenting it any time soon, The mentality of such a person could vary dramatically from, I've let my instructor down and that's why I failed, to anger denial, and embaressment, I mean.. the list goes on and on.. even if they really did find such people, i'm sure there would still be a valid way to counter as to how the grappler could have done better, Training a fair amount seems to be the best way to go about it, which as far as I can tell has be a on-going theme in all of the kind folks who posted here with good intentions hoping to help me on my path. I'd like to thank you ALL again for doing so, and thanks hagakure I know you too have good intentions in regards to me and how I fair, how awesome would it to have a wing tzun mma champion in the ufc?!
OMG, I cant believe I'm diving into this pool again, but hey, what can I say, I love a good grappling debate!!
I"m pressed for time this morning so I'll be short:
1) If you want to improve on your standup against a grappler, IMHO, you need to work with a grappler. Don't care what the grappling art is, you need to work it with someone who KNOWS how to grapple.
2) The clip that elder linked is a good example. See, this is why I advocate training against a grappler, because if the person you're working with isnt a good grappler, you will be under this false impression that what you're doing actually works. This is why me, a Kenpo guy, works with guys who train BJJ. When they shoot, I know it'll be a good shoot, compared to me working with someone who doesnt know how or doesnt shoot right. So, working with a good shooter, will give me the best training.
Now, I'm sure someone will come back and say, "Well, you're not going to get mugged by Royce, so....." and thats true, as the average punk won't be a knife master or an expert marksman or an expert grappler. However, I dont know who I'll face in the street. MMA and wrestling are popular, so its very possible I'd face someone with good grappling skill. IMO, I'd rather be over prepared and not need it, than be under prepared and wish I had.
I"m pressed for time this morning so I'll be short:
1) If you want to improve on your standup against a grappler, IMHO, you need to work with a grappler. Don't care what the grappling art is, you need to work it with someone who KNOWS how to grapple.
2) The clip that elder linked is a good example. See, this is why I advocate training against a grappler, because if the person you're working with isnt a good grappler, you will be under this false impression that what you're doing actually works. This is why me, a Kenpo guy, works with guys who train BJJ. When they shoot, I know it'll be a good shoot, compared to me working with someone who doesnt know how or doesnt shoot right. So, working with a good shooter, will give me the best training.
Now, I'm sure someone will come back and say, "Well, you're not going to get mugged by Royce, so....." and thats true, as the average punk won't be a knife master or an expert marksman or an expert grappler. However, I dont know who I'll face in the street. MMA and wrestling are popular, so its very possible I'd face someone with good grappling skill. IMO, I'd rather be over prepared and not need it, than be under prepared and wish I had.
OP
OP
Nabakatsu
Brown Belt
I completely agree and recall Si-Je, whom the clip is of I believe? Declaring that they only just taught the folks how to shoot that day, I'm under the impression it was more geared towards showing potential technique and ideas/thoughts/principals one could apply, rather than a demonstration against a well trained grappler. I think everyone is in agreeance that preassure testing any kind of technique against someone who specializes in that area of expertise. Thanks for your reiteration! Over-preperation is definitely something I will take into heart both for competent street defense as well as before I enter into any kind of competition fighting that allows grappling!
I don't really train with the expectation that I will have to use it in the street. My real motivation is... Hell I don't know. I just like the martial arts OK? And part of that is knowing that what I'm are learning isn't BS. It may be toned down for ordinary folks like me, as compared to training for MMA fighter's or Pros, LEOs, and Special Ops types who really need the stuff to survive, but still I want the real thing. That means you've got to test it out, like you said, against boxers, grapplers, kickers, even against weapons artists (FMA, Silat, etc.) Or you can just take it all on faith alone. Ha.
